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 This is a continuously updated archive of the Aroid-L mailing list in a forum format - not an actual Forum. If you want to post, you will still need to register for the Aroid-L mailing list and send your postings by e-mail for moderation in the normal way.

  New Species Anthurium, sect. Belolonchium
From: "Elizabeth Campbell" <desinadora at mail2designer.com> on 2008.12.28 at 16:19:45(18816)
Hi folks! As Steve said, I've found this big, ornate-leafed Anthurium, which Dr. Croat says is undescribed, and for which I am doing the fieldwork to collect the type specimen and take the environmental data. He mentioned y'all might like to see it! I took a number of descriptive photos of the specimens that are growing at the Quito Botanical Gardens, and for ease of viewing they live in their own gallery. Here's the address:

http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/HabloPorArboles/Unknown%20Anthurium/

I hope to find specimens with mature seed; if not I will have to take cuttings in order to home-culture the plant. When I have viable seed for it, I'll post another message for collectors. As a private citizen, it is very difficult for me to ship live plant matter out of the country, but they have no problem with germplasm.

Steve: I am not normally in the coastal forests, but it looks like I'll get an opportunity to go later this month. I shall certainly keep an eye out for your species, and if I find it I will take wild photos, and the observations you wanted. I can also bug EcuaGenera on your behalf.

Cheers!

Beth

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From: "Daniel Devor" <plantguy at zoominternet.net> on 2008.12.28 at 19:02:42(18819)
Hi Beth, Perhaps you could explain to a total novice who has never field collected plants what you mean by collecting the "type specimen" and then showing us pictures of plants that are already collected, flowering and fruiting (maybe I mesread and this is a different plant)?? It seems the people at the Quito Botanical Gardens could, if they chose to, compile a complete description of the plant in question, including a proper genetic analysis if they deemed it appropriate. Are you saying that all that is left to do is find the original field notes for collection local?

Sorry for the naive questions, but I'm just curious :o)

Thanks ,

Dan

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From: "Windy Aubrey" <exotics at hawaii.rr.com> on 2008.12.28 at 19:34:49(18820)
Hi Beth,

I am interested in seeing this wonderful new Anthurium you have discovered.

Could you be so kind as to put up a direct link to it? I am having some problems finding it with the address you have listed.

Thanks,

Windy

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From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2008.12.28 at 20:49:46(18821)
Spectacular photos Beth! If you areable to collect seeds you can be assured I want a few and I am prettysure I know others who will as well.

http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/HabloPorArboles/Unknown%20Anthurium/

Steve

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From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2008.12.31 at 20:16:01(18829)
Hi Daniel, I've been correspondingwith Beth about this plant for sometime and will attempt to give you an answer. The type specimen needsto be a plant with known collection data(elevation, forest type, epiphyte or terrestrial) that has been fullydescribed, ie, roots, stem, internodes, cataphylls,blades, veins, inflorescence, infructescence and details on the femaleand male flowers as well as pollen with detailed information on boththe adaxial (upper) surface as well as the abaxial (lower) surface ofthe blade including the midrib, primary lateral veins and tertiaryveins. The people at the Quito Botanical Garden apparently did notcollect fieldnotes when they rescued their specimens which were in danger of beingdestroyed so that data does not nowexist. They have given Beth an approximate location where it was foundand Beth is now working with Dr. Tom Croat to find it in the wild anddo the necessary field work to satisfy the publication of a scientificdescription of a new species. The senior botanist also grantsthe plant its name. One complete leaf must be dried and properlypreserved so information can be compared to other known speciesspecimens. Adried blade may dry a different color than known species or exhibitfeatures not easily seen on a living specimen, thus the need for thecomparison. All that info plus the dried specimen and a livingspecimen known as the "type specimen" must be deposited in a recognizedbotanical garden collection. Of course, Tom will do that work withBeth working as the junior co-author and the dried material and typespecimen deposited in the Missouri Botanical Garden living collectionof aroid species.

Genetic analysis is not normallydone to publish a scientific description. The new problem in botany isfar too many genetic botanists have little to zero idea what anyspecies lookslike in the wild state including natural variations, they only know howto determine a species byusing genetic information which is virtually worthless to a fieldbotanist such as Dr. Croat. Field botany is regrettably a dieing breedof scientist! If you are armed only with genetic data, how in theworld do you know how to recognize a plant in the wild? You can'teasily do a genetic analysis in the middle of an Ecuadorian rain forest.

Hope that helps.

Steve Lucas

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From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2009.01.01 at 00:58:39(18831)
One major thing I left out is thepublication of the species description. Once the paper has beencompleted it needs to be published in a recognized scientific journal. Those of us who are members of and support the International AroidSociety receive an annual copy of the IAS journal Aroideana which iswhere aroid papers are often published to science. More often thannot, IAS members get to learn about new species before almost anyoneelse! If you are interested in exactly how a species is described youcan find an article on the IAS website entitled STANDARDIZATION OFANTHURIUM DESCRIPTIONS by
Dr. Thomas B. Croat and George S. Bunting.

And by the way, just in case you haven't renewed your IAS membershipfor 2009, the dues are now due. Please continue to support theInternational Aroid Society. And if you haven't joined, do so now byvisiting the IAS website.

http://www.aroid.org/

Steve Lucas

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From: "Tom Croat" <Thomas.Croat at mobot.org> on 2009.01.03 at 03:02:05(18839)
Steve:

Passthis on to Dan Devor! .

Findingdecent type specimen is actually one of the most difficult tasks of abotanist. There are lots of new species floating around but you need morethan a live plant which does not count for anything according to therules. It has to be herbarium material preserved in a recognizedherbarium. Moreover, I insist that the type be widely distributed,meaning a bare minimum of three specimens, one on each continent. This isto avoid the risk of losing or damaging the specimens by sending them throughthe mail. Too often specimens, particularly those of large plants, arecollected in sets of one (useless in my opinion). When I collect andsuspect that something is new I try to make as many specimens as possible. Naturally a good description is nice and commendable but legally there are nodemands on the quality of the description, unlike the demand that a collectionbe preserved. I try to make excellent descriptions with lots of photos aswell. Aroids are confusing enough when you have excellent information soit all helps.

Tom

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From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2009.01.03 at 05:27:06(18844)
Thanks Tom! I had really hoped you would add something to thisdiscussion. So Dan, there is your definitive answer from the bestexpert on aroid species there is.

Steve Lucas

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From: "Daniel Devor" <plantguy at zoominternet.net> on 2009.01.04 at 04:51:17(18851)
Hi Steve and Tom,

Thanks for the replies!! Unfortunately, the science does not seem "hard" in that the rules are not clear-cut as to how many specimens must be removed from nature and the obvious ethical concerns that causes and the quality of the description does not need to be well done based on Tom's post below. Honestly, this is a huge shock to me. This has been very informative for me however and I appreciate the input from the true experts!!

I do have one other question and that regards authorship and how it is applied? As a basic lab scientist who has published a few papers I generally rely on three important areas that are required for a manuscript to be written and authorship to be granted. One must either do the science (or some % of it....a vague reality nowadays when science is far more collaborative and authorships are necessary for grants to be obtained and tenure to be achieved, etc), substantially be resposnible for the ideas underlying the science or write the manuscript. Ideally any author would have done portions of 2 of the 3 above. Indeed, these are not just my rules, but the rules that are set forth by the Univ. of Pittsburgh for authorship on any published manuscript coming from the institution. Obviously, obtaining the outside funding from NIH, NSF or a foundation is necessary, but likely the senior author has done that by default.

So, I am wondering how authorship is determined for botanical descriptions such as we are talking about here? Again, this is way outside my area of research and publishing, but it is an interesting topic for those of us interested in how these new species get published in the first place.

Thanks for taking the time as I realize that not a lot of people have an interest in something this technical.....or maybe they do since we all rely on people like Tom to provide the species names for the plants in our collections :o)

Dan

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From: "Elizabeth Campbell" <desinadora at mail2designer.com> on 2009.01.04 at 14:42:38(18855)
I can actually speak to how authorship is going to work in the case of this new plant. Basically, I will be the one responsable for the fieldwork, collection, and notes pertaining to these, and then Dr. Croat will use this information to describe the plant. Hence, I'm co-authoring in the sense that I have provided the observational data and the specimens.

Not sure how it works in other cases, but I'm sure it's similar.

Beth

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From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2009.01.04 at 18:17:28(18857)
Dan, I'm going to bow to Tom'sexpertise in answering this for you. Although I'd very much like to beinvolved in coauthoring a new species some day Tom has either authoredor been the senior author on many new species. And you are very right,such topics are of great interest to a number of people who contributeto Aroid l. We are very blessed to have some of the world's bestexperts in aroid science as a part of this forum and I learn new thingsright here all the time. In fact, there are more than a few of ouresteemed experts who have been very quiet lately and I sincerely urgethem to give us the benefit of their knowledge again!

Steve Lucas

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From: "Tom Croat" <Thomas.Croat at mobot.org> on 2009.01.06 at 00:09:23(18869)
Dear Steve:

I see that I have listedAnthurium faustomirandae as being a member of sect. Calomystium. That said Imust say that a lot of the Mexican species of Anthurium defy classification andindeed some of them probably represent new sections, such as A. lucens, A.chiapense, A. longipeltatum, etc. with glandular punctuations.

Tom

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From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2009.01.06 at 07:08:46(18871)
Thanks for the info Tom. I will addthat to my page.

Steve

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