Re: [Aroid-l] New Species Anthurium, sect. Belolonchium

From: "Daniel Devor" <plantguy at zoominternet.net> on 2009.01.04 at 04:51:17(18851) Hi Steve and Tom, Thanks for the replies!! Unfortunately, the science does not seem "hard" in that the rules are not clear-cut as to how many specimens must be removed from nature and the obvious ethical concerns that causes and the quality of the description does not need to be well done based on Tom's post below. Honestly, this is a huge shock to me. This has been very informative for me however and I appreciate the input from the true experts!! I do have one other question and that regards authorship and how it is applied? As a basic lab scientist who has published a few papers I generally rely on three important areas that are required for a manuscript to be written and authorship to be granted. One must either do the science (or some % of it....a vague reality nowadays when science is far more collaborative and authorships are necessary for grants to be obtained and tenure to be achieved, etc), substantially be resposnible for the ideas underlying the science or write the manuscript. Ideally any author would have done portions of 2 of the 3 above. Indeed, these are not just my rules, but the rules that are set forth by the Univ. of Pittsburgh for authorship on any published manuscript coming from the institution. Obviously, obtaining the outside funding from NIH, NSF or a foundation is necessary, but likely the senior author has done that by default. So, I am wondering how authorship is determined for botanical descriptions such as we are talking about here? Again, this is way outside my area of research and publishing, but it is an interesting topic for those of us interested in how these new species get published in the first place. Thanks for taking the time as I realize that not a lot of people have an interest in something this technical.....or maybe they do since we all rely on people like Tom to provide the species names for the plants in our collections :o) Dan HTML +More ----- Original Message ----- From: ExoticRainforest To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:27 AM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] New Species Anthurium, sect. Belolonchium Thanks Tom! I had really hoped you would add something to this discussion. So Dan, there is your definitive answer from the best expert on aroid species there is. Steve Lucas Tom Croat wrote: Steve: Pass this on to Dan Devor! . Finding decent type specimen is actually one of the most difficult tasks of a botanist. There are lots of new species floating around but you need more than a live plant which does not count for anything according to the rules. It has to be herbarium material preserved in a recognized herbarium. Moreover, I insist that the type be widely distributed, meaning a bare minimum of three specimens, one on each continent. This is to avoid the risk of losing or damaging the specimens by sending them through the mail. Too often specimens, particularly those of large plants, are collected in sets of one (useless in my opinion). When I collect and suspect that something is new I try to make as many specimens as possible. Naturally a good description is nice and commendable but legally there are no demands on the quality of the description, unlike the demand that a collection be preserved. I try to make excellent descriptions with lots of photos as well. Aroids are confusing enough when you have excellent information so it all helps. Tom From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of ExoticRainforest Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 2:16 PM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: [Aroid-l] New Species Anthurium, sect. Belolonchium Hi Daniel, I've been corresponding with Beth about this plant for some time and will attempt to give you an answer. The type specimen needs to be a plant with known collection data (elevation, forest type, epiphyte or terrestrial) that has been fully described, ie, roots, stem, internodes, cataphylls, blades, veins, inflorescence, infructescence and details on the female and male flowers as well as pollen with detailed information on both the adaxial (upper) surface as well as the abaxial (lower) surface of the blade including the midrib, primary lateral veins and tertiary veins. The people at the Quito Botanical Garden apparently did not collect field notes when they rescued their specimens which were in danger of being destroyed so that data does not now exist. They have given Beth an approximate location where it was found and Beth is now working with Dr. Tom Croat to find it in the wild and do the necessary field work to satisfy the publication of a scientific description of a new species. The senior botanist also grants the plant its name. One complete leaf must be dried and properly preserved so information can be compared to other known species specimens. A dried blade may dry a different color than known species or exhibit features not easily seen on a living specimen, thus the need for the comparison. All that info plus the dried specimen and a living specimen known as the "type specimen" must be deposited in a recognized botanical garden collection. Of course, Tom will do that work with Beth working as the junior co-author and the dried material and type specimen deposited in the Missouri Botanical Garden living collection of aroid species. Genetic analysis is not normally done to publish a scientific description. The new problem in botany is far too many genetic botanists have little to zero idea what any species looks like in the wild state including natural variations, they only know how to determine a species by using genetic information which is virtually worthless to a field botanist such as Dr. Croat. Field botany is regrettably a dieing breed of scientist! If you are armed only with genetic data, how in the world do you know how to recognize a plant in the wild? You can't easily do a genetic analysis in the middle of an Ecuadorian rain forest. Hope that helps. Steve Lucas www.ExoticRainforest.com Daniel Devor wrote: Hi Beth, Perhaps you could explain to a total novice who has never field collected plants what you mean by collecting the "type specimen" and then showing us pictures of plants that are already collected, flowering and fruiting (maybe I mesread and this is a different plant)?? It seems the people at the Quito Botanical Gardens could, if they chose to, compile a complete description of the plant in question, including a proper genetic analysis if they deemed it appropriate. Are you saying that all that is left to do is find the original field notes for collection local? Sorry for the naive questions, but I'm just curious :o) Thanks , Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Elizabeth Campbell To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:19 AM Subject: [Aroid-l] New Species Anthurium, sect. Belolonchium Hi folks! As Steve said, I've found this big, ornate-leafed Anthurium, which Dr. Croat says is undescribed, and for which I am doing the fieldwork to collect the type specimen and take the environmental data. He mentioned y'all might like to see it! I took a number of descriptive photos of the specimens that are growing at the Quito Botanical Gardens, and for ease of viewing they live in their own gallery. Here's the address: http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/HabloPorArboles/Unknown%20Anthurium/ I hope to find specimens with mature seed; if not I will have to take cuttings in order to home-culture the plant. When I have viable seed for it, I'll post another message for collectors. As a private citizen, it is very difficult for me to ship live plant matter out of the country, but they have no problem with germplasm. Steve: I am not normally in the coastal forests, but it looks like I'll get an opportunity to go later this month. I shall certainly keep an eye out for your species, and if I find it I will take wild photos, and the observations you wanted. I can also bug EcuaGenera on your behalf. Cheers! Beth _______________________________________________________________ Get the Free email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com Unlimited Email Storage – POP3 – Calendar – SMS – Translator – Much More! _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l ------=_NextPart_000_0114_01C96DFE.2B459130----==============i57866459144268959=

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