Re: [Aroid-l] New Species Anthurium, sect. Belolonchium

From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2009.01.04 at 18:17:28 Dan, I'm going to bow to Tom'sexpertise in answering this for you.  Although I'd very much like to beinvolved in coauthoring a new species some day Tom has either authoredor been the senior author on many new species.  And you are very right,such topics are of great interest to a number of people who contributeto Aroid l.  We are very blessed to have some of the world's bestexperts in aroid science as a part of this forum and I learn new thingsright here all the time.  In fact, there are more than a few of ouresteemed experts who have been very quiet lately and I sincerely urgethem to give us the benefit of their knowledge again! Steve Lucas www.ExoticRainforest.com Daniel Devor wrote: Hi Steve and Tom,   Thanks for the replies!! Unfortunately, the science does not seem "hard" in that the rules arenot clear-cut as to how many specimens must be removed from nature andthe obvious ethical concerns that causes and the quality of thedescription does not need to be well done based on Tom's post below. Honestly, this is a huge shock to me.  This has been very informativefor me however and I appreciate the input from the true experts!!   I do have one other question andthat regards authorship and how it is applied?  As a basic labscientist who has published a few papers I generally rely on threeimportant areas that are required for a manuscript to be written andauthorship to be granted.  One must either do the science (or some % ofit....a vague reality nowadays when science is far more collaborativeand authorships are necessary for grants to be obtained and tenure tobe achieved, etc), substantially be resposnible for the ideasunderlying the science or write the manuscript.  Ideally any authorwould have done portions of 2 of the 3 above.  Indeed, these are notjust my rules, but the rules that are set forth by the Univ. ofPittsburgh for authorship on any published manuscript coming from theinstitution.  Obviously, obtaining the outside funding from NIH, NSF ora foundation is necessary, but likely the senior author has done thatby default.   So, I am wondering how authorship isdetermined for botanical descriptions such as we are talking abouthere?  Again, this is way outside my area of research and publishing,but it is an interesting topic for those of us interested in how thesenew species get published in the first place.   Thanks for taking the time as Irealize that not a lot of people have an interest in something thistechnical.....or maybe they do since we all rely on people like Tom toprovide the species names for the plants in our collections :o)   Dan     -----Original Message ----- From: ExoticRainforest To: Discussion of aroids Sent:Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:27 AM Subject:Re: [Aroid-l] New Species Anthurium, sect. Belolonchium Thanks Tom!  I had really hoped you would add something tothis discussion.  So Dan, there is your definitive answer from the bestexpert on aroid species there is. Steve Lucas Tom Croat wrote: Steve:            Pass this on to Dan Devor! .             Finding decent type specimen is actually one of the most difficulttasks of a botanist.  There are lots of new species floating around butyou need more than a live plant which does not count for anythingaccording to the rules.  It has to be herbarium material preserved in arecognized herbarium.  Moreover, I insist that the type be widelydistributed, meaning a bare minimum of three specimens, one on eachcontinent.  This is to avoid the risk of losing or damaging thespecimens by sending them through the mail.  Too often specimens,particularly those of large plants, are collected in sets of one(useless in my opinion).  When I collect and suspect that something isnew I try to make as many specimens as possible.  Naturally a gooddescription is nice and commendable but legally there are no demands onthe quality of the description, unlike the demand that a collection bepreserved. I try to make excellent descriptions with lots of photos aswell.  Aroids are confusing enough when you have excellent informationso it all helps. Tom From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com[mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of ExoticRainforest Sent: Wednesday,December 31, 2008 2:16 PM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: [Aroid-l]New Species Anthurium, sect. Belolonchium Hi Daniel, I've beencorresponding with Beth about this plant for some time and will attemptto give you an answer.  The type specimen needs to be a plant withknown collection data (elevation, forest type, epiphyte or terrestrial)that has been fully described, ie, roots, stem, internodes, cataphylls,blades, veins, inflorescence, infructescence and details on the femaleand male flowers as well as pollen with detailed information on boththe adaxial (upper) surface as well as the abaxial (lower) surface ofthe blade including the midrib, primary lateral veins and tertiaryveins.  The people at the Quito Botanical Gardenapparently did not collect field notes when they rescued theirspecimens which were in danger of being destroyed so that data does notnow exist.  They have given Beth an approximate location where it wasfound and Beth is now working with Dr. Tom Croat to find it in the wildand do the necessary field work to satisfy the publication of ascientific description of a new species.  The senior botanist alsogrants the plant its name.  One complete leaf must be dried andproperly preserved so information can be compared to other knownspecies specimens.  A dried blade may dry a different color than knownspecies or exhibit features not easily seen on a living specimen, thusthe need for the comparison.  All that info plus the dried specimen anda living specimen known as the "type specimen" must be deposited in arecognized botanical garden collection.  Of course, Tom will do thatwork with Beth working as the junior co-author and the dried materialand type specimen deposited in the Missouri BotanicalGarden living collection of aroid species.  Genetic analysis is not normally done to publish a scientificdescription.  The new problem in botany is far too many geneticbotanists have little to zero idea what any species looks like in thewild state including natural variations, they only know how todetermine a species by using genetic information which is virtuallyworthless to a field botanist such as Dr. Croat.  Field botany isregrettably a dieing breed of scientist!  If you are armed only withgenetic data, how in the world do you know how to recognize a plant inthe wild?  You can't easily do a genetic analysis in the middle of anEcuadorian rain forest. Hope that helps. Steve Lucas www.ExoticRainforest.com Daniel Devor wrote: Hi Beth,  Perhaps youcould explain to a total novice who has never field collected plantswhat you mean by collecting the "type specimen" and then showing uspictures of plants that are already collected, flowering and fruiting(maybe I mesread and this is a different plant)??  It seems the peopleat the Quito Botanical Gardens could, if they chose to, compile acomplete description of the plant in question, including a propergenetic analysis if they deemed it appropriate.  Are you saying thatall that is left to do is find the original field notes for collectionlocal? Sorry for the naivequestions, but I'm just curious :o) Thanks , Dan ----- Original Message----- From: ElizabethCampbell To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Sent: Sunday, December 28,2008 11:19 AM Subject: [Aroid-l] New SpeciesAnthurium, sect. Belolonchium Hi folks! As Steve said, I'vefound this big, ornate-leafed Anthurium, which Dr. Croat says isundescribed, and for which I am doing the fieldwork to collect the typespecimen and take the environmental data. He mentioned y'all might liketo see it! I took a number of descriptive photos of the specimens thatare growing at the Quito Botanical Gardens, and for ease of viewingthey live in their own gallery. Here's the address: http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/HabloPorArboles/Unknown%20Anthurium/ I hope to find specimens with mature seed; if not I will have to takecuttings in order to home-culture the plant. When I have viable seedfor it, I'll post another message for collectors. As a private citizen,it is very difficult for me to ship live plant matter out of thecountry, but they have no problem with germplasm. Steve: I am not normally in the coastal forests, but it looks like I'llget an opportunity to go later this month. I shall certainly keep aneye out for your species, and if I find it I will take wild photos, andthe observations you wanted. I can also bug EcuaGenera on your behalf. Cheers! Beth _______________________________________________________________ Get the Free email that has everyone talking at http://www.mail2world.com UnlimitedEmail Storage – POP3 – Calendar – SMS – Translator – Much More! _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l   _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l   _______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l --------------010606030005030402040203

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