Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica

From: <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2009.11.17 at 14:05:11(20314) Dear All, Marek`s note (below) confirms what I have been suspecting and saying for quite a long time--- since the ORIGINAL hybrid named A. X "Amazonica" was created by Salvatori (Sam) Mauro at his nursery in Miami by crossing A. sanderiana with A. watsoniana, and the resulting hybrid named after his nursery (Amazon Nursery) around 1950, as adult plants were viewed at his nursery in the late 1950`s.  I STRONGLY suspect that others who wish to remain nameless have made OTHER crosses with A. sanderiana using OTHER species of alocasia such as A. lowii, etc., some of these newer hybrids have been placed in tissue culture and sold under the name A. ''Amazonica'', some with new cultivar names as mentioned by Marek ("Polly", etc.) tacked on.  All add to the confusion.  Steve will post the end-all to this whole puzzle perhaps later today. Thanks for your input, Marek! Good Growing, Julius HTML +More Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:33:47 -0600 From: Steve@ExoticRainforest.com To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica If anyone gets "killed" it willlikely be me for stirring up another hornet's nest!  I believe you arelikely correct on these but would really like to hear from some of thefolks that have a serious understanding of how all this came to be,especially the notation on the Belgium garden site. Steve Marek Argent wrote: Hi Steve,   I will add other probable parents of A. × amazonica = (A. longiloba 'Lowii'  × A. sanderiana). Its leaf margins are undulate, whilein A. longiloba they are entire and A. sanderianahas deep lobes. Alocasia 'Polly' is a newercultivar, it is more robust, and the leaf venation is thicker. Alocasia 'Frydek' or'Freydyk' or 'Maxkowskii' are probably cultivars or hybrids of A.micholitziana, their leaves are velvety.   I'm sending you links to photos ofthese plants, not to pages.  My pages about these plants weremade 6-7 years ago, and there are a lot of errors in thedescriptions. The photos are identified correctly.   http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/amaz.jpg× amazonica http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/polly1.jpg 'Polly' http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/grnlf1.jpg micholitziana'Maxkowskii' http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/alocasia/lowii2.jpg longiloba'Lowii'   Being regarded as a hybridspecies, the name "amazonica" should be italicized: Alocasia × amazonicahort.     If something changed recently(during 5-6 years), please don't kill me for false info.   Best, Marek     -----Original Message ----- From: ExoticRainforest To: Discussion of aroids Sent:Saturday, November 14, 2009 7:37 AM Subject:[Aroid-l] Alocasia Amazonica and Alocasia x Amazonica This one is going to be long guys and gals so please stay with me!. Since many of you are growing this plant you may find this interesting. I am seeking the assistance of any and all the botanists and/or expertson this forum since I've uncovered an apparent new mystery and can'tseem to reach a resolution.  Although at least one plant seller on the internet advertises "Straightfrom the Rainforest to Your Home" while offering Alocasia Amazonica forsale this plant has never existed naturally in any rain forests of theworld. It is very well known this plant is a hybrid but the actualparentage has been debated.  Alocasia Amazonica is likely a hybrid of Alocasiawatsoniana x Alocasia sanderiana but other crossesincluding Alocasia watsoniana x Alocasia nobilis haveproduced similar results. Other sources have stated other parentage isinvolved so I'm not sure what the real parentage may have been, I onlyknow it did not come from nature.  The plant is sometimes known by the common names African Mask, GreenVelvet, Jewel Alocasia, Alocasia Polly, or Alocasia Alligator andcommercial growers have sold it as Alocasia Frydek and as AlocasiaMaxkowskii. Botanical gardens rarely list hybrid plants on their website but if youdo an internet search you will find the National Botanic Garden of Belgium plus some "official" sources including the University of Connecticut and the USDA list the plant asAlocasia x Amazonica  André.   Unless I've got my facts totally wrong"André" refers to botanist André Michaux who lived from 1746 to 1802. Since Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and at least theplant we know by the name Alocasia Amazonica today wasn't evenhybridized until the 1930's are they talking about the same plant?  Howcould it be the same hybrid if botanist André Michaux wrote about itbefore his death in 1802? Now, for some background for those on the forum that don't normally diginto this kind of "plant mystery": Alocasia Amazonica is not a species and has never been described toscience  It does not grow naturally in any native rain forest,is notfrom the Amazon.  The name should never be used in either theitalicized form or with single quotations since it is neither apublished species nor a registered cultivar. With the help of JohnBanta our friend author and expert Julius Boos was able to trace thehybrid to a nursery owner who during the 1930's and 1940's owned a nowdefunct nursery in the Miami. The nursery was known as the "AmazonNursery" and the grower is said to have named Alocasia Amazonica afterhis own business. The name has since been used by growers for over 70years. Just in case you are confused, Alocasia species are allnaturally found in the geographical region composed of Southeast Asiaand neighboring island nations of the Pacific Ocean including thePhilippines. No Alocasia species has ever been found naturallyin Central or South America including the Amazon basin although specieshave been imported as well as set free and now thrive in the area. Just in case one of our members believes Alocasia Amazonica is aspecies here are three scientific data bases.  You won't find AlocasiaAmazonica on any. The Royal Botanic Garden Kew, London: http://www.ipni.org/index.htmlThe Missouri Botanical Garden: http://www.tropicos.org/World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do Still, it is listed on the National Botanic Garden of Belgium website:  http://www.br.fgov.be/RESEARCH/COLLECTIONS/LIVING/LIVCOL/list/l_113.html and credited to André. Some experts believe the plant did not originate in Miami and likelywas originally bred in Belgium, France or England since it is mentionedin Burnetts 'Cultivated Alocasia'.  I don't have access to thatpublication so I can't check out the sources.  If it was hybridized inEurope, who did it?  When?  Was AndréMichaux involved?  Did he write about it?  If so, where are his papersand more importantly, is it the same plant we grow? Are we talking about the same hybrid or was there a plant hybridizedbefore 1800 in England, France or Belgium that also used the nameAlocasia x Amazonica which was copied by the grower in Miami? I can normally figure these "mysteries" out with the help of Julius,Leland, Tom and Pete as well as some of our other esteemed botanistsbut this one has me stumped.  Josef, David, Wilbert and Simon, sinceyou are in Europe do you know anything about this?  I'd really like tounderstand where the name originated and if we are talking about thesame plant that is commonly tissue cultured and grown today. Thanks! Steve www.ExoticRainforest.com _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l Nie znaleziono virusa w tej wiadomosci przychodzacej. Sprawdzone przez AVG - www.avg.com Wersja: 8.5.425 / Baza danych wirusów: 270.14.65/2503 - Data wydania:11/14/09 19:42:00 _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l --_7008db0a-e291-49f6-b93f-1336b8ebe51a_----==============‚10414306651776151=

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