|
--- On Wed, 7/16/08, Peter Boyce wrote:
> From: Peter Boyce
> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] ubba dubba reticulata
> To: "Discussion of aroids"
> Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 8:19 PM
> Whoa Leland...you have a PHONE LINE.... LUXURY...we have two
> empty cocoa
> tins joined by long a string.... before that we had a
> pigeon... but the cat
> ate him....
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "brian lee"
> To: "Discussion of aroids"
>
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] ubba dubba reticulata
>
>
> > Dear Derek,
> >
> > Aloha.
> >
> > I am sorry...please understand that I am a high tech
> ignoramus and online
> > neophyte. I am willing to learn. Also undertand that
> the system in my
> > neighborhood is still on a rotary phone system. I
> will change subjects as
> > our tangential subject switching demands...but, please
> jump in if we get
> > carried away. I assumed I could not change the
> subject line in this
> > forum...live and learn.
> >
> > Aloha,
> >
> > Leland
> >
> >
> > --- On Wed, 7/16/08, derek burch
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: derek burch
> >> Subject: [Aroid-l] ubba dubba reticulata
> >> To: "'Discussion of aroids'"
>
> >> Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 1:57 AM
> >> Dear Pete and Leland and everyone.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> PLEASE don't just click 'Reply"
> without
> >> changing the subject line when the
> >> topic of your email has changed.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am interested in alocasias, I am interested in
> the
> >> alpha-taxonomist
> >> drought, but I should like to be able to open the
> emails
> >> that refer to a
> >> topic without having to take a lucky dip into what
> finally
> >> amounts to an
> >> email morass. At the moment it is a bit like my
> filing
> >> system in my office
> >> where everything goes into one file labeled
> "A" -
> >> that includes 'A letter',
> >> 'A reply' and so on. Very quick and easy.
> I do also
> >> have an "An" file where
> >> I put 'An invoice'
> >>
> >> , An unpaid account'.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> But I digress .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards, to all,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Derek
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com
> >> [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com]
> >> On Behalf Of Peter Boyce
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 9:12 PM
> >> To: Discussion of aroids
> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Leland,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, where I live unless there is a change in
> education
> >> policy to imbue
> >> those few (and it is FEW) students with some
> botanical
> >> aptitude, to gain
> >> knowledge of the basic building blocks of botany,
> notably
> >> comparative
> >> morphology ecology & geomorphology, the
> spectre of no
> >> wide-experience field
> >> botanists, already a fact in many parts of Asia,
> will
> >> become a region-wide
> >> problem. In fact the whole of taxonomy, let alone
> >> systematics, is in danger
> >> of slipping off the curriculum in universities
> throughout
> >> the region such
> >> that only the minute hard-core (essentially
> botanically
> >> hard-wired) folks
> >> will make it through and continue. The problem
> then will be
> >> that there are
> >> increasingly fewer jobs that call for taxonomic
> expertise
> >> such that those
> >> few that wish to remain in the field usually end
> up earning
> >> a living doing
> >> something at the best only tangentially associated
> with
> >> their passion. Of
> >> course the irony is that there has never been a
> greater
> >> need for taxonomic
> >> expertise in order to make the rational decisions
> required
> >> to protect the
> >> remaining tropical habitats.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Curiously, I am not anywhere near as doubtful or
> indeed
> >> pessimistic about
> >> the increasing use of molecular data and also
> don't
> >> altogether agree with
> >> the total genome argument. Regarding the function
> of
> >> various parts of the
> >> molecular code, in recent years there has been
> made
> >> enormous strides in
> >> understanding what various coding regions
> 'do' such
> >> that the link with this
> >> and evo-devo is now a well established area of
> scientific
> >> exploration. Of
> >> course some of these areas are ferociously
> expensive but
> >> with molecular
> >> extraction methodologies and analyses programmes
> >> increasingly simplified
> >> costs are dropping such that basic extraction and
> >> methodologies are well
> >> within the budget of even quite modest research
> >> establishments.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Regarding the usefulness of molecular data,
> especially
> >> vis-a-vis the ability
> >> of the molecular practitioners to actual identify
> the
> >> organisms they are
> >> studying, yes, I agree, that still far too many
> molecular
> >> research outputs
> >> are the product of lab rats without any practical
> field
> >> training and worse
> >> are oftentimes undertaken without or with only
> minimal
> >> taxonomic cross
> >> fertilization. However, that situation is fast
> becoming
> >> history as more and
> >> more multi-author research outputs based on sound
> >> alpha-taxonomy, with the
> >> molecular toolbox being opened only once a decent
> >> 'traditional' taxonomy is
> >> established and is testable. This is much the
> approach we
> >> are using, with a
> >> multi-stranded project that is investigating
> alpha-tax. and
> >> then
> >> phylogentics and then using the phylogenies to
> investigate
> >> spatial
> >> evolution, etc. We have been very fotunate to find
> good
> >> students who are
> >> willing to spend the necessary field time as part
> of their
> >> molecular-based
> >> research and as a result have a much more complete
> >> biological reserach
> >> toolbox.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The main problem here
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>
> >> From: "brian lee" <
> >>
> lbmkjm at yahoo.com>
> >>
> >> To: "Discussion of aroids" <
> >>
> >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com>
> >>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:45 AM
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Dear Pete,
> >> >
> >> > Aloha.
> >> >
> >> > What a shame. What will happen when there
> are no
> >> field botanists with the
> >> knowledge to recognize species in habitat? I have
> taken
> >> young molecular
> >> taxonomists into the field and some of them really
> have no
> >> clue what they
> >> are looking at until you tell them. At this rate,
> there
> >> will come a time
> >> when no field botanists will be able to lead them
> to their
> >> samples...which
> >> they send off to distant labs to analyze the
> relationships.
> >> >
> >> > The other problematic issue I see is that
> whole
> >> genomes are not analyzed,
> >> only sections that are not necessarily associated
> with
> >> known
> >> characteristics. I see a great need for
> traditional
> >> botany...but the lure
> >> of molecular biology is hooking most of the young
> fish
> >> these days. One day
> >> I see entire genomes of all plants being
> sequenced...which
> >> is a good thing
> >> in the long run. There will always be a great need
> for
> >> morphologists in the
> >> field, however...in my humble opinion...until all
> the
> >> plants are located on
> >> GPS and barcoded and linked to the great databases
> they
> >> envision. Who will
> >> control this information?
> >> >
> >> > In the meantime,I hope the horticulturists
> out there
> >> report their
> >> observations. Unfortunately, most of these plants
> are not
> >> associated with
> >> good locality data... It will serve as a survey of
> >> variation,however.
> >> >
> >> > Aloha,
> >> >
> >> > Leland
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On Wed, 7/9/08, Peter Boyce <
> >>
> >> botanist at malesiana.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: Peter Boyce <
> >>
> >> botanist at malesiana.com>
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina
> reticulata
> >> >> To: "Discussion of aroids" <
> >>
> >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com>
> >> >> Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 10:32 PM
> >> >> Hi Leland,
> >> >>
> >> >> I was more thinking along the lines that
> the
> >> numerous folks
> >> >> who grow
> >> >> Alocasia zebrina might pitch in with
> observations
> >> on the
> >> >> different
> >> >> menifestation that this species takes in
> >> cultivation.
> >> >>
> >> >> The Flora of the Philippines project is
> stll
> >> active but is
> >> >> suffering from
> >> >> the same problem besetting several
> similar
> >> projects in
> >> >> Asia, that of a
> >> >> dearth of botanists tackling
> alpha-taxonomy and
> >> the almost
> >> >> universal problem
> >> >> that so few students are coming into
> field-work
> >> based
> >> >> botany once they leave
> >> >> university such that as the few remaining
> active
> >> >> field-taxonomists/systematits become
> fewer still
> >> there are
> >> >> a
> >> >> disproportionately small number of young
> bloods
> >> entering
> >> >> the career.
> >> >>
> >> >> Pete
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "brian lee" <
> >>
> lbmkjm at yahoo.com>
> >> >> To: "Discussion of aroids"
> >> >> <
>
> >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com>
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:17 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina
> reticulata
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Dear Pete,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Aloha.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It is hard to comment on issues that
> some of
> >> us have
> >> >> no knowledge on.
> >> >> > That is not to say we do not have an
> >> obsessive desire
> >> >> for knowledge. We
> >> >> > wait on bated breath for tidbits of
> treasure
> >> from you.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum
> used to
> >> participate
> >> >> in a program called,
> >> >> > the Philippine Flora Project that
> was to
> >> catalog as
> >> >> many of the in-situ
> >> >> > plants remaining in the
> archipelago...which
> >> was being
> >> >> destroyed at a pace
> >> >> > and scale that would see many
> habitats
> >> extirpated. I
> >> >> do not recall the
> >> >> > percentage of the destruction, but
> it was a
> >> >> significant proportion. My
> >> >> > point here is that if habitats are
> destroyed,
> >> it will
> >> >> be impossible to
> >> >> > reconstruct some of these
> interesting pearls
> >> of
> >> >> information we all desire.
> >> >> > I can ask Clyde Imada if Alocasia
> species
> >> were
> >> >> catalogued in this
> >> >> > program...hopefully your contact
> will respond
> >> with a
> >> >> wealth of new
> >> >> > information to enlighten the
> darkness. I am
> >> >> optimistic that Melanie will
> >> >> > answer the call.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Aloha,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Leland
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Peter Boyce
> >> >> <
>
> >> botanist at malesiana.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> From: Peter Boyce <
> >>
> >> botanist at malesiana.com>
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia
> zebrina
> >> reticulata
> >> >> >> To: "Discussion of
> aroids"
> >> >> <
>
> >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com>
> >> >> >> Cc: "Melanie P. Medecilo -
> >> hotmail"
> >> >> <
> >> mmedecilo at hotmail.com>
> >> >> >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008,
> 11:45 AM
> >> >> >> Hi Denis,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I am quite surprised that no one
> has
> >> picked up on
> >> >> the last
> >> >> >> comment in your
> >> >> >> posting regarding the status of
> A.
> >> zebrina in
> >> >> cultivation.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> As you know, Alistair Hay in his
> >> herbarium-based
> >> >> account of
> >> >> >> Philippines'
> >> >> >> Alocasia (Gardens' Bulletin
> Singapore
> >> 51: 1-41
> >> >> (1999))
> >> >> >> treated A. zebrina as
> >> >> >> a variable species and included
> under
> >> that name A.
> >> >> >> wenzelii. He made no
> >> >> >> mention of the name A. tigrina
> (or A.
> >> zebrina
> >> >> tigrina) as
> >> >> >> this name and any
> >> >> >> combination thereof has never
> been
> >> formally
> >> >> published and
> >> >> >> thus from a strict
> >> >> >> botanical standpoint dos not
> exist.
> >> Goerverts et
> >> >> al.
> >> >> >> include a further name
> >> >> >> as a provisional syn. (A.
> liervalii) but
> >> without
> >> >> further
> >> >> >> discussion.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Not withstanding the strict
> application
> >> of
> >> >> application of
> >> >> >> published names,
> >> >> >> it is clear to anyone who grows
> A.
> >> zebrina that
> >> >> there are
> >> >> >> several
> >> >> >> conspicuously different (but
> likewise
> >> clearly
> >> >> allied)
> >> >> >> entities in
> >> >> >> cultivation, among which the
> form with
> >> reticulated
> >> >> venation
> >> >> >> is particularly
> >> >> >> striking. What of course is
> needed is a
> >> >> comprehensive field
> >> >> >> study to try to
> >> >> >> untangle these cultivated clones
> and see
> >> where
> >> >> they may
> >> >> >> have originated. For
> >> >> >> that reason I have ccd this
> aroid-l
> >> posting to
> >> >> Melanie
> >> >> >> Medecilo in the
> >> >> >> Philippines; Melanie is
> currently working
> >> on
> >> >> >> Philippines' Alocasia and if
> >> >> >> anyone is able to shed some
> light on the
> >> status of
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> various clones of A.
> >> >> >> zebrina she can.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Very best
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Peter
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> >> From: "Denis" <
> >> denis at skg.com>
> >> >> >> To: "'Discussion of
> >> aroids'"
> >> >> >> <
> >>
> >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com>
> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008
> 4:23 AM
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia
> zebrina
> >> reticulata
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Alocasia zebrina
> >> 'reticulata' was
> >> >> subsequently
> >> >> >> tissue cultured by
> >> >> >> > Oglesby Plant Labs in the
> 1980's
> >> to
> >> >> satisfy the
> >> >> >> small collector's market
> >> >> >> > for this unusual plant.
> Only about
> >> 1,000 to
> >> >> 1,500
> >> >> >> plants were produced
> >> >> >> > at that time. You might
> could ask
> >> Plantsman
> >> >> Jim
> >> >> >> Georgusis who currently
> >> >> >> > is working at Oglesby
> Plants if he
> >> knows
> >> >> anymore about
> >> >> >> the origins of
> >> >> >> > this cultivar. I think he
> worked at
> >> Fantastic
> >> >> Gardens
> >> >> >> in the 1970's.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > The plant is currently
> being
> >> produced in
> >> >> Tissue
> >> >> >> Culture at Agristarts,
> >> >> >> > Inc. in Apopka Florida.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > The question is still open
> as to
> >> whether or
> >> >> not
> >> >> >> Alocasia zebrina is true
> >> >> >> > species described in the
> literature
> >> somewhere
> >> >> or just
> >> >> >> a sub variety of
> >> >> >> > Alocasia tigrina group.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Denis
> >> >> >> > Silver Krome Gardens, Inc.
> >> >> >> > Homestead Florida
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> >> > From:
> >>
> >> aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com
> >> >> >> >
> >> [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] On
> >> >> Behalf Of
> >> >> >> Harry Luther
> >> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 21,
> 2008 8:05
> >> PM
> >> >> >> > To: Discussion of aroids
> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l]
> Alocasia
> >> zebrina
> >> >> reticulata
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I believe that I first saw
> an
> >> Alocasia
> >> >> >> "reticulata" at
> Fantastic
> >> Gardens
> >> >> >> > in Miami in the summer of
> 1976 in
> >> their
> >> >> private, keep
> >> >> >> out stock house.
> >> >> >> > This was when the Mentelos
> family
> >> had the
> >> >> nursery. My
> >> >> >> memory may be off
> >> >> >> > a bit as its filled with
> bromeliad
> >> stuff.
> >> >> HEL
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> >> > From:
> >>
> >> aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com
> >> >> >> >
> >> [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com]On
> >> >> Behalf Of
> >> >> >> brian lee
> >> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 21,
> 2008 2:27
> >> PM
> >> >> >> > To: Discussion of aroids
> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l]
> Alocasia
> >> zebrina
> >> >> reticulata
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Dear Enid,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Aloha.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > About 1986, Roberto
> Burle-Marx,
> >> Betty Ho,
> >> >> Robert
> >> >> >> Hirano, and I went to
> >> >> >> > the Philippines. Corazon
> Aquino
> >> just became
> >> >> >> President, and it was a
> >> >> >> > wild time. Our host,
> Ronnie Lane
> >> was
> >> >> murdered a week
> >> >> >> before our trip
> >> >> >> > and our new host was Dr.
> Vic Santos.
> >> There is
> >> >> an
> >> >> >> Alocasia 'Vic Santos'
> >> >> >> > that we brought in for the
> first
> >> time. Vic
> >> >> made sure
> >> >> >> that we got all
> >> >> >> > sorts of Philippine plants,
> >> including many
> >> >> Alocasia
> >> >> >> species...including
> >> >> >> > Alocasia zebrina and
> several forms.
> >> Soon
> >> >> after our
> >> >> >> trip, Vic was
> >> >> >> > murdered at his farm. I do
> not know
> >> much
> >> >> about
> >> >> >> Alocasia, but Bob Hirano
> >> >> >> > does. Bob's
> collections are
> >> maintained
> >> >> at Lyon
> >> >> >> Arboretum and they will
> >> >> >> > have records of all that
> was
> >> collected. Bob
> >> >> has
> >> >> >> retired and his eyes
> >> >> >> > were messed up in a botched
> >> operation. If
> >> >> this forum
> >> >> >> does not come up
> >> >> >> > with an answer for you, I
> can
> >> contact Ray
> >> >> Baker at the
> >> >> >> Arboretum and he
> >> >> >> > may have some information
> on their
> >> BG-base
> >> >> data
> >> >> >> system. Another source
> >> >> >> > of information may be at
> the Bernice
> >> Pauahi
> >> >> Bishop
> >> >> >> Museum. They were
> >> >> >> > involved in the Philippine
> Flora
> >> Project and
> >> >> I can
> >> >> >> contact Clyde Imada
> >> >> >> > to see if they have any
> records in
> >> >> conjunction with
> >> >> >> this program.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I look forward to seeing
> what this
> >> thread
> >> >> reveals.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Aloha,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Leland
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Enid
> >> >> <
> >> enigo at bellsouth.net>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> From: Enid <
> >>
> enigo at bellsouth.net>
> >> >> >> >> Subject: [Aroid-l]
> Alocasia
> >> zebrina
> >> >> reticulata
> >> >> >> >> To:
> >>
> >> aroid-l at gizmoworks.com
> >> >> >> >> Date: Friday, June 20,
> 2008,
> >> 4:55 PM
> >> >> >> >> OK, does anyone out
> there know
> >> where
> >> >> Alocasia
> >> >> >> zebrina reticulata
> >> >> >> >> originally came from?
> Is it a
> >> proper
> >> >> species or a
> >> >> >> mutant?
> >> >> >> >> Enid
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Natural Selections
> Exotics
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> www.NSExotics.com_______________________________________________
> >> >> >> >> Aroid-L mailing list
> >> >> >> >>
> >>
> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
>
> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >>
> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list
> >> >> >> >
> >>
> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
>
> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >> >> >> >
> >> >>
> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list
> >> >> >> >
> >>
> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
>
> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >>
> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list
> >> >> >> >
> >>
> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
>
> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> Aroid-L mailing list
> >> >> >>
> >>
> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >> >> >>
> >>
>
> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list
> >> >> >
>
> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >> >> >
> >>
>
> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Aroid-L mailing list
> >> >>
>
> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >> >>
> >>
>
> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> _______________________________________________
> >> > Aroid-L mailing list
> >> >
> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >> Aroid-L mailing list
> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Aroid-L mailing list
> > Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
> > http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aroid-L mailing list
> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com
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