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________________________________
From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com
[mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of Peter Boyce
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:12 PM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata
Dear Leland,
Well, where I live unless there is a change in education policy to imbue
those few (and it is FEW) students with some botanical aptitude, to gain
knowledge of the basic building blocks of botany, notably comparative
morphology ecology & geomorphology, the spectre of no wide-experience
field botanists, already a fact in many parts of Asia, will become a
region-wide problem. In fact the whole of taxonomy, let alone
systematics, is in danger of slipping off the curriculum in universities
throughout the region such that only the minute hard-core (essentially
botanically hard-wired) folks will make it through and continue. The
problem then will be that there are increasingly fewer jobs that call
for taxonomic expertise such that those few that wish to remain in the
field usually end up earning a living doing something at the best only
tangentially associated with their passion. Of course the irony is that
there has never been a greater need for taxonomic expertise in order to
make the rational decisions required to protect the remaining tropical
habitats.
Curiously, I am not anywhere near as doubtful or indeed pessimistic
about the increasing use of molecular data and also don't altogether
agree with the total genome argument. Regarding the function of various
parts of the molecular code, in recent years there has been made
enormous strides in understanding what various coding regions 'do' such
that the link with this and evo-devo is now a well established area of
scientific exploration. Of course some of these areas are ferociously
expensive but with molecular extraction methodologies and analyses
programmes increasingly simplified costs are dropping such that basic
extraction and methodologies are well within the budget of even quite
modest research establishments.
Regarding the usefulness of molecular data, especially vis-a-vis the
ability of the molecular practitioners to actual identify the organisms
they are studying, yes, I agree, that still far too many molecular
research outputs are the product of lab rats without any practical field
training and worse are oftentimes undertaken without or with only
minimal taxonomic cross fertilization. However, that situation is fast
becoming history as more and more multi-author research outputs based on
sound alpha-taxonomy, with the molecular toolbox being opened only once
a decent 'traditional' taxonomy is established and is testable. This is
much the approach we are using, with a multi-stranded project that is
investigating alpha-tax. and then phylogentics and then using the
phylogenies to investigate spatial evolution, etc. We have been very
fotunate to find good students who are willing to spend the necessary
field time as part of their molecular-based research and as a result
have a much more complete biological reserach toolbox.
Cheers
Peter
The main problem here
----- Original Message -----
From: "brian lee" >
To: "Discussion of aroids"
>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata
> Dear Pete,
>
> Aloha.
>
> What a shame. What will happen when there are no field botanists with
the knowledge to recognize species in habitat? I have taken young
molecular taxonomists into the field and some of them really have no
clue what they are looking at until you tell them. At this rate, there
will come a time when no field botanists will be able to lead them to
their samples...which they send off to distant labs to analyze the
relationships.
>
> The other problematic issue I see is that whole genomes are not
analyzed, only sections that are not necessarily associated with known
characteristics. I see a great need for traditional botany...but the
lure of molecular biology is hooking most of the young fish these days.
One day I see entire genomes of all plants being sequenced...which is a
good thing in the long run. There will always be a great need for
morphologists in the field, however...in my humble opinion...until all
the plants are located on GPS and barcoded and linked to the great
databases they envision. Who will control this information?
>
> In the meantime,I hope the horticulturists out there report their
observations. Unfortunately, most of these plants are not associated
with good locality data... It will serve as a survey of
variation,however.
>
> Aloha,
>
> Leland
>
>
> --- On Wed, 7/9/08, Peter Boyce
> wrote:
>
>> From: Peter Boyce
>
>> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata
>> To: "Discussion of aroids"
>
>> Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 10:32 PM
>> Hi Leland,
>>
>> I was more thinking along the lines that the numerous folks
>> who grow
>> Alocasia zebrina might pitch in with observations on the
>> different
>> menifestation that this species takes in cultivation.
>>
>> The Flora of the Philippines project is stll active but is
>> suffering from
>> the same problem besetting several similar projects in
>> Asia, that of a
>> dearth of botanists tackling alpha-taxonomy and the almost
>> universal problem
>> that so few students are coming into field-work based
>> botany once they leave
>> university such that as the few remaining active
>> field-taxonomists/systematits become fewer still there are
>> a
>> disproportionately small number of young bloods entering
>> the career.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "brian lee" >
>> To: "Discussion of aroids"
>> >
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata
>>
>>
>> > Dear Pete,
>> >
>> > Aloha.
>> >
>> > It is hard to comment on issues that some of us have
>> no knowledge on.
>> > That is not to say we do not have an obsessive desire
>> for knowledge. We
>> > wait on bated breath for tidbits of treasure from you.
>> >
>> > The Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum used to participate
>> in a program called,
>> > the Philippine Flora Project that was to catalog as
>> many of the in-situ
>> > plants remaining in the archipelago...which was being
>> destroyed at a pace
>> > and scale that would see many habitats extirpated. I
>> do not recall the
>> > percentage of the destruction, but it was a
>> significant proportion. My
>> > point here is that if habitats are destroyed, it will
>> be impossible to
>> > reconstruct some of these interesting pearls of
>> information we all desire.
>> > I can ask Clyde Imada if Alocasia species were
>> catalogued in this
>> > program...hopefully your contact will respond with a
>> wealth of new
>> > information to enlighten the darkness. I am
>> optimistic that Melanie will
>> > answer the call.
>> >
>> > Aloha,
>> >
>> > Leland
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Peter Boyce
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> From: Peter Boyce
>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata
>> >> To: "Discussion of aroids"
>> >
>> >> Cc: "Melanie P. Medecilo - hotmail"
>> >
>> >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:45 AM
>> >> Hi Denis,
>> >>
>> >> I am quite surprised that no one has picked up on
>> the last
>> >> comment in your
>> >> posting regarding the status of A. zebrina in
>> cultivation.
>> >>
>> >> As you know, Alistair Hay in his herbarium-based
>> account of
>> >> Philippines'
>> >> Alocasia (Gardens' Bulletin Singapore 51: 1-41
>> (1999))
>> >> treated A. zebrina as
>> >> a variable species and included under that name A.
>> >> wenzelii. He made no
>> >> mention of the name A. tigrina (or A. zebrina
>> tigrina) as
>> >> this name and any
>> >> combination thereof has never been formally
>> published and
>> >> thus from a strict
>> >> botanical standpoint dos not exist. Goerverts et
>> al.
>> >> include a further name
>> >> as a provisional syn. (A. liervalii) but without
>> further
>> >> discussion.
>> >>
>> >> Not withstanding the strict application of
>> application of
>> >> published names,
>> >> it is clear to anyone who grows A. zebrina that
>> there are
>> >> several
>> >> conspicuously different (but likewise clearly
>> allied)
>> >> entities in
>> >> cultivation, among which the form with reticulated
>> venation
>> >> is particularly
>> >> striking. What of course is needed is a
>> comprehensive field
>> >> study to try to
>> >> untangle these cultivated clones and see where
>> they may
>> >> have originated. For
>> >> that reason I have ccd this aroid-l posting to
>> Melanie
>> >> Medecilo in the
>> >> Philippines; Melanie is currently working on
>> >> Philippines' Alocasia and if
>> >> anyone is able to shed some light on the status of
>> the
>> >> various clones of A.
>> >> zebrina she can.
>> >>
>> >> Very best
>> >>
>> >> Peter
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Denis" >
>> >> To: "'Discussion of aroids'"
>> >> >
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:23 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Alocasia zebrina 'reticulata' was
>> subsequently
>> >> tissue cultured by
>> >> > Oglesby Plant Labs in the 1980's to
>> satisfy the
>> >> small collector's market
>> >> > for this unusual plant. Only about 1,000 to
>> 1,500
>> >> plants were produced
>> >> > at that time. You might could ask Plantsman
>> Jim
>> >> Georgusis who currently
>> >> > is working at Oglesby Plants if he knows
>> anymore about
>> >> the origins of
>> >> > this cultivar. I think he worked at Fantastic
>> Gardens
>> >> in the 1970's.
>> >> >
>> >> > The plant is currently being produced in
>> Tissue
>> >> Culture at Agristarts,
>> >> > Inc. in Apopka Florida.
>> >> >
>> >> > The question is still open as to whether or
>> not
>> >> Alocasia zebrina is true
>> >> > species described in the literature somewhere
>> or just
>> >> a sub variety of
>> >> > Alocasia tigrina group.
>> >> >
>> >> > Denis
>> >> > Silver Krome Gardens, Inc.
>> >> > Homestead Florida
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com
>> >> > [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] On
>> Behalf Of
>> >> Harry Luther
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:05 PM
>> >> > To: Discussion of aroids
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina
>> reticulata
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I believe that I first saw an Alocasia
>> >> "reticulata" at Fantastic Gardens
>> >> > in Miami in the summer of 1976 in their
>> private, keep
>> >> out stock house.
>> >> > This was when the Mentelos family had the
>> nursery. My
>> >> memory may be off
>> >> > a bit as its filled with bromeliad stuff.
>> HEL
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com
>> >> > [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com]On
>> Behalf Of
>> >> brian lee
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 2:27 PM
>> >> > To: Discussion of aroids
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina
>> reticulata
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Dear Enid,
>> >> >
>> >> > Aloha.
>> >> >
>> >> > About 1986, Roberto Burle-Marx, Betty Ho,
>> Robert
>> >> Hirano, and I went to
>> >> > the Philippines. Corazon Aquino just became
>> >> President, and it was a
>> >> > wild time. Our host, Ronnie Lane was
>> murdered a week
>> >> before our trip
>> >> > and our new host was Dr. Vic Santos. There is
>> an
>> >> Alocasia 'Vic Santos'
>> >> > that we brought in for the first time. Vic
>> made sure
>> >> that we got all
>> >> > sorts of Philippine plants, including many
>> Alocasia
>> >> species...including
>> >> > Alocasia zebrina and several forms. Soon
>> after our
>> >> trip, Vic was
>> >> > murdered at his farm. I do not know much
>> about
>> >> Alocasia, but Bob Hirano
>> >> > does. Bob's collections are maintained
>> at Lyon
>> >> Arboretum and they will
>> >> > have records of all that was collected. Bob
>> has
>> >> retired and his eyes
>> >> > were messed up in a botched operation. If
>> this forum
>> >> does not come up
>> >> > with an answer for you, I can contact Ray
>> Baker at the
>> >> Arboretum and he
>> >> > may have some information on their BG-base
>> data
>> >> system. Another source
>> >> > of information may be at the Bernice Pauahi
>> Bishop
>> >> Museum. They were
>> >> > involved in the Philippine Flora Project and
>> I can
>> >> contact Clyde Imada
>> >> > to see if they have any records in
>> conjunction with
>> >> this program.
>> >> >
>> >> > I look forward to seeing what this thread
>> reveals.
>> >> >
>> >> > Aloha,
>> >> >
>> >> > Leland
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Enid
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> From: Enid >
>> >> >> Subject: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina
>> reticulata
>> >> >> To: aroid-l at gizmoworks.com
>> >> >> Date: Friday, June 20, 2008, 4:55 PM
>> >> >> OK, does anyone out there know where
>> Alocasia
>> >> zebrina reticulata
>> >> >> originally came from? Is it a proper
>> species or a
>> >> mutant?
>> >> >> Enid
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Natural Selections Exotics
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> www.NSExotics.com
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
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