[Aroid-l] ubba dubba reticulata

From: dburch23 at bellsouth.net (derek burch) on 2008.07.16 at 11:57:53(18168) Dear Pete and Leland and everyone. PLEASE don't just click 'Reply" without changing the subject line when the topic of your email has changed. I am interested in alocasias, I am interested in the alpha-taxonomist drought, but I should like to be able to open the emails that refer to a topic without having to take a lucky dip into what finally amounts to an email morass. At the moment it is a bit like my filing system in my office where everything goes into one file labeled "A" - that includes 'A letter', 'A reply' and so on. Very quick and easy. I do also have an "An" file where I put 'An invoice' , An unpaid account'. But I digress . Regards, to all, Derek +More -----Original Message----- From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of Peter Boyce Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 9:12 PM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata Dear Leland, Well, where I live unless there is a change in education policy to imbue those few (and it is FEW) students with some botanical aptitude, to gain knowledge of the basic building blocks of botany, notably comparative morphology ecology & geomorphology, the spectre of no wide-experience field botanists, already a fact in many parts of Asia, will become a region-wide problem. In fact the whole of taxonomy, let alone systematics, is in danger of slipping off the curriculum in universities throughout the region such that only the minute hard-core (essentially botanically hard-wired) folks will make it through and continue. The problem then will be that there are increasingly fewer jobs that call for taxonomic expertise such that those few that wish to remain in the field usually end up earning a living doing something at the best only tangentially associated with their passion. Of course the irony is that there has never been a greater need for taxonomic expertise in order to make the rational decisions required to protect the remaining tropical habitats. Curiously, I am not anywhere near as doubtful or indeed pessimistic about the increasing use of molecular data and also don't altogether agree with the total genome argument. Regarding the function of various parts of the molecular code, in recent years there has been made enormous strides in understanding what various coding regions 'do' such that the link with this and evo-devo is now a well established area of scientific exploration. Of course some of these areas are ferociously expensive but with molecular extraction methodologies and analyses programmes increasingly simplified costs are dropping such that basic extraction and methodologies are well within the budget of even quite modest research establishments. Regarding the usefulness of molecular data, especially vis-a-vis the ability of the molecular practitioners to actual identify the organisms they are studying, yes, I agree, that still far too many molecular research outputs are the product of lab rats without any practical field training and worse are oftentimes undertaken without or with only minimal taxonomic cross fertilization. However, that situation is fast becoming history as more and more multi-author research outputs based on sound alpha-taxonomy, with the molecular toolbox being opened only once a decent 'traditional' taxonomy is established and is testable. This is much the approach we are using, with a multi-stranded project that is investigating alpha-tax. and then phylogentics and then using the phylogenies to investigate spatial evolution, etc. We have been very fotunate to find good students who are willing to spend the necessary field time as part of their molecular-based research and as a result have a much more complete biological reserach toolbox. Cheers Peter The main problem here ----- Original Message ----- From: "brian lee" < lbmkjm at yahoo.com> To: "Discussion of aroids" < aroid-l at gizmoworks.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:45 AM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata > Dear Pete, > > Aloha. > > What a shame. What will happen when there are no field botanists with the knowledge to recognize species in habitat? I have taken young molecular taxonomists into the field and some of them really have no clue what they are looking at until you tell them. At this rate, there will come a time when no field botanists will be able to lead them to their samples...which they send off to distant labs to analyze the relationships. > > The other problematic issue I see is that whole genomes are not analyzed, only sections that are not necessarily associated with known characteristics. I see a great need for traditional botany...but the lure of molecular biology is hooking most of the young fish these days. One day I see entire genomes of all plants being sequenced...which is a good thing in the long run. There will always be a great need for morphologists in the field, however...in my humble opinion...until all the plants are located on GPS and barcoded and linked to the great databases they envision. Who will control this information? > > In the meantime,I hope the horticulturists out there report their observations. Unfortunately, most of these plants are not associated with good locality data... It will serve as a survey of variation,however. > > Aloha, > > Leland > > > --- On Wed, 7/9/08, Peter Boyce < botanist at malesiana.com> wrote: > >> From: Peter Boyce < botanist at malesiana.com> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata >> To: "Discussion of aroids" < aroid-l at gizmoworks.com> >> Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 10:32 PM >> Hi Leland, >> >> I was more thinking along the lines that the numerous folks >> who grow >> Alocasia zebrina might pitch in with observations on the >> different >> menifestation that this species takes in cultivation. >> >> The Flora of the Philippines project is stll active but is >> suffering from >> the same problem besetting several similar projects in >> Asia, that of a >> dearth of botanists tackling alpha-taxonomy and the almost >> universal problem >> that so few students are coming into field-work based >> botany once they leave >> university such that as the few remaining active >> field-taxonomists/systematits become fewer still there are >> a >> disproportionately small number of young bloods entering >> the career. >> >> Pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "brian lee" < lbmkjm at yahoo.com> >> To: "Discussion of aroids" >> < aroid-l at gizmoworks.com> >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 6:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata >> >> >> > Dear Pete, >> > >> > Aloha. >> > >> > It is hard to comment on issues that some of us have >> no knowledge on. >> > That is not to say we do not have an obsessive desire >> for knowledge. We >> > wait on bated breath for tidbits of treasure from you. >> > >> > The Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum used to participate >> in a program called, >> > the Philippine Flora Project that was to catalog as >> many of the in-situ >> > plants remaining in the archipelago...which was being >> destroyed at a pace >> > and scale that would see many habitats extirpated. I >> do not recall the >> > percentage of the destruction, but it was a >> significant proportion. My >> > point here is that if habitats are destroyed, it will >> be impossible to >> > reconstruct some of these interesting pearls of >> information we all desire. >> > I can ask Clyde Imada if Alocasia species were >> catalogued in this >> > program...hopefully your contact will respond with a >> wealth of new >> > information to enlighten the darkness. I am >> optimistic that Melanie will >> > answer the call. >> > >> > Aloha, >> > >> > Leland >> > >> > >> > --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Peter Boyce >> < botanist at malesiana.com> wrote: >> > >> >> From: Peter Boyce < botanist at malesiana.com> >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata >> >> To: "Discussion of aroids" >> < aroid-l at gizmoworks.com> >> >> Cc: "Melanie P. Medecilo - hotmail" >> < mmedecilo at hotmail.com> >> >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:45 AM >> >> Hi Denis, >> >> >> >> I am quite surprised that no one has picked up on >> the last >> >> comment in your >> >> posting regarding the status of A. zebrina in >> cultivation. >> >> >> >> As you know, Alistair Hay in his herbarium-based >> account of >> >> Philippines' >> >> Alocasia (Gardens' Bulletin Singapore 51: 1-41 >> (1999)) >> >> treated A. zebrina as >> >> a variable species and included under that name A. >> >> wenzelii. He made no >> >> mention of the name A. tigrina (or A. zebrina >> tigrina) as >> >> this name and any >> >> combination thereof has never been formally >> published and >> >> thus from a strict >> >> botanical standpoint dos not exist. Goerverts et >> al. >> >> include a further name >> >> as a provisional syn. (A. liervalii) but without >> further >> >> discussion. >> >> >> >> Not withstanding the strict application of >> application of >> >> published names, >> >> it is clear to anyone who grows A. zebrina that >> there are >> >> several >> >> conspicuously different (but likewise clearly >> allied) >> >> entities in >> >> cultivation, among which the form with reticulated >> venation >> >> is particularly >> >> striking. What of course is needed is a >> comprehensive field >> >> study to try to >> >> untangle these cultivated clones and see where >> they may >> >> have originated. For >> >> that reason I have ccd this aroid-l posting to >> Melanie >> >> Medecilo in the >> >> Philippines; Melanie is currently working on >> >> Philippines' Alocasia and if >> >> anyone is able to shed some light on the status of >> the >> >> various clones of A. >> >> zebrina she can. >> >> >> >> Very best >> >> >> >> Peter >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Denis" < denis at skg.com> >> >> To: "'Discussion of aroids'" >> >> < aroid-l at gizmoworks.com> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 4:23 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina reticulata >> >> >> >> >> >> > Alocasia zebrina 'reticulata' was >> subsequently >> >> tissue cultured by >> >> > Oglesby Plant Labs in the 1980's to >> satisfy the >> >> small collector's market >> >> > for this unusual plant. Only about 1,000 to >> 1,500 >> >> plants were produced >> >> > at that time. You might could ask Plantsman >> Jim >> >> Georgusis who currently >> >> > is working at Oglesby Plants if he knows >> anymore about >> >> the origins of >> >> > this cultivar. I think he worked at Fantastic >> Gardens >> >> in the 1970's. >> >> > >> >> > The plant is currently being produced in >> Tissue >> >> Culture at Agristarts, >> >> > Inc. in Apopka Florida. >> >> > >> >> > The question is still open as to whether or >> not >> >> Alocasia zebrina is true >> >> > species described in the literature somewhere >> or just >> >> a sub variety of >> >> > Alocasia tigrina group. >> >> > >> >> > Denis >> >> > Silver Krome Gardens, Inc. >> >> > Homestead Florida >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com >> >> > [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com] On >> Behalf Of >> >> Harry Luther >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:05 PM >> >> > To: Discussion of aroids >> >> > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina >> reticulata >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I believe that I first saw an Alocasia >> >> "reticulata" at Fantastic Gardens >> >> > in Miami in the summer of 1976 in their >> private, keep >> >> out stock house. >> >> > This was when the Mentelos family had the >> nursery. My >> >> memory may be off >> >> > a bit as its filled with bromeliad stuff. >> HEL >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com >> >> > [mailto:aroid-l-bounces at gizmoworks.com]On >> Behalf Of >> >> brian lee >> >> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 2:27 PM >> >> > To: Discussion of aroids >> >> > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina >> reticulata >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Dear Enid, >> >> > >> >> > Aloha. >> >> > >> >> > About 1986, Roberto Burle-Marx, Betty Ho, >> Robert >> >> Hirano, and I went to >> >> > the Philippines. Corazon Aquino just became >> >> President, and it was a >> >> > wild time. Our host, Ronnie Lane was >> murdered a week >> >> before our trip >> >> > and our new host was Dr. Vic Santos. There is >> an >> >> Alocasia 'Vic Santos' >> >> > that we brought in for the first time. Vic >> made sure >> >> that we got all >> >> > sorts of Philippine plants, including many >> Alocasia >> >> species...including >> >> > Alocasia zebrina and several forms. Soon >> after our >> >> trip, Vic was >> >> > murdered at his farm. I do not know much >> about >> >> Alocasia, but Bob Hirano >> >> > does. Bob's collections are maintained >> at Lyon >> >> Arboretum and they will >> >> > have records of all that was collected. Bob >> has >> >> retired and his eyes >> >> > were messed up in a botched operation. If >> this forum >> >> does not come up >> >> > with an answer for you, I can contact Ray >> Baker at the >> >> Arboretum and he >> >> > may have some information on their BG-base >> data >> >> system. Another source >> >> > of information may be at the Bernice Pauahi >> Bishop >> >> Museum. They were >> >> > involved in the Philippine Flora Project and >> I can >> >> contact Clyde Imada >> >> > to see if they have any records in >> conjunction with >> >> this program. >> >> > >> >> > I look forward to seeing what this thread >> reveals. >> >> > >> >> > Aloha, >> >> > >> >> > Leland >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Enid >> < enigo at bellsouth.net> >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> From: Enid < enigo at bellsouth.net> >> >> >> Subject: [Aroid-l] Alocasia zebrina >> reticulata >> >> >> To: aroid-l at gizmoworks.com >> >> >> Date: Friday, June 20, 2008, 4:55 PM >> >> >> OK, does anyone out there know where >> Alocasia >> >> zebrina reticulata >> >> >> originally came from? Is it a proper >> species or a >> >> mutant? >> >> >> Enid >> >> >> >> >> >> Natural Selections Exotics >> >> >> >> >> >> www.NSExotics.com_______________________________________________ >> >> >> Aroid-L mailing list >> >> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> >> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list >> >> > Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> > >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list >> >> > Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> > >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > Aroid-L mailing list >> >> > Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> > >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Aroid-L mailing list >> >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Aroid-L mailing list >> > Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> > http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aroid-L mailing list >> Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com >> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aroid-L mailing list > Aroid-L at www.gizmoworks.com > http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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