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----- Original Message -----
From:
Julius Boos
To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:48
AM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] P. 'S. L, Dan and
Ted--a reply!
>From : Reply-To
: Discussion of aroids Sent :
Friday, February 23, 2007 9:48 PMTo : "Discussion of aroids" Subject
: Re: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa Leopoldina'Dear Dan (and
Ted!),In our narrow "focus" on this discussion, we have most certainly
ommited a most important point raised by Dan (below), that being the
inspection of the sexual parts of the blooms, and comparison to a 'true'
specimen of P. s.-sancti (available in the fantastic botanical
illustrations of Dr. Goncalves).What I write is from memory, so PLEASE
confirm by checking on Eduardo Goncalves' article with GREAT photos and
illustrations of ALL aspects being discussed.A couple of comments will
clear this up.---1) Dr. George Bunting, who originally
described the species, did not have a bloom (fertile material), so Dr.
Goncalves had to wait till he could obtain fertile material, and only THEN
did he complete his fantastic work on clarifying and doing a new
description, photos, drawings and all, INCLUDING delailed illustrations of
the microscopic sexual parts which are imperative in a FINAL
determination. He also gave invaluable information on the
width-to-length ratio of the leaf blade, very few or maybe no other
species of Philodendron as an adult produces a leaf with a blade that is
close to this ratio.Ted, to address a point you made, this species has
been recognized for MANY years as being 'special, and plants from the
original area have been in collections for a LONG time (60
years??). Bear in mind that these plants are suspected of
living for HUNDREDS of years!The material used by Dr. Goncalves in his
description is certainly of this species.The reports of the small
number of these plants surviving in 'the wild' are VERY accurate, as
difficult as it is to even comprehend, ALMOST the entire area of what USED
to be jungle is now cow-pastures, a very small remnant of patches small of
jungle remain, and the land and these priceless patches (and the remaining
plants) are owned by a man (a friend of Dr. Goncalves) who recognizes this
unique plant.Read Dr. Goncalves' description of the width-to-length ratio
of the leaf, look at the photos and drawings, and you will and can have NO
doubt if you have or do NOT have or are dealing with a legit. specimen of
P. s. sancti.2) This species seems to bloom only occasionally, so
obtaining blooms for comparison w/ Dr. Goncalves' illustrations is
difficult!There is a photo on Steve Lucas' web-page kindly supplied by Mic
Pasqual of Australia of a bloom produced by his plant which is purported
to be this species, unfortunately the lower part of the spathe was not cut
away so as to be able to see and examine the female parts, but the hope is
that Eduardo can at least give an opinion as to the plant`s determination
based on the spathe/bloom and the photos of the leaves.3) I have
never seen any blooms on any of the other Philodendrons sold as P. "Santa
Leopoldiana", but they are all FAST-growing, vineing species, none have
the width-to-length ratio of their respective leaf blades, so can not be
included as legit. P. s.-sancti.As discussed (read Eduardo`s article)
'Santa Leopoldiana' does NOT seem to be a legitimate name, so basically
ANYONE can call ANY Philodendron P. 'Santa Leopoldiana" and do with it
what they want, so "let the buyer beware"!!4) In closing, I urge
all growers to obesrve their plants, and should a bloom be produced, take
GOOD photos of both leaves and blooms (after carefully cutting away a
portion of the lower spathe so as to be able to see the female
parts). If no fertilization is attained, please
preserve the entire bloom in 'rubbing alcohol', there are folks who would
like to dissect and examine these blooms.Steve Lucas is doing a
wonderful service and a fantastic job of compiling information,
correspondence and photos of these plants in an attempt to sort this
puzzle out. He is doing so amid some pretty 'rough' attacks,
etc. Please bear in mind that neither Steve or myself are
trained Taxonomists, the FINAL word will hopefully be forthcoming from the
experts like Dr. Croat and Dr. Goncalves in Brazil WHEN THEY HAVE THE TIME
TO EXAMINE ALL THE POSTED MATERIAL!! Keep up the good work
Steve.Good
Growing,JuliusWPB,FLORIDA>>Well, I have been
following this thread with some interest although I have >>never
grown a Philo. in my life. In spite of my monumental ignorance of
>>the genus I finally have gotten up the nerve to ask a completely
silly >>question. I have only heard people talking about the
leaf of these >>plants, the rate at which they grow, color of top
and bottom of leaf, etc, >>but surely a proper ID can not be made
for this plant, or this genus I >>would have thought, based on leaf
form and color can it?? The pictures >>being posted are
incredibly beautiful and the difference between juvenile >>and adult
leaf forms is intrigueing, but truly points out the difficulty >>of
relying on these features for an ID. I have not read of anyone
>>describing the "naughty bits" as Wilbert refers to them for his
favorite >>genus. Does the Philo. world not rely upon the
reproductive bits in the >>influorescence for a proper
ID?? If so, then it would seem that proper >>IDs would
be possible for anyone that has flowered their plant. Are these
>>almost impossible to flower thus adding to the difficulty??
Also, I would >>assume that someone is doing the proper DNA work-up
on these plants so >>that a completely unequivocal ID can be had by
anyone that wants to submit >>and pay for genotyping, but perhaps
not??I apologize for the questions of an outsider in this rather
exciting conversation, but I hope that perhaps I can learn a little bit
along the way and perhaps someday I will even have a Philo. of my
own....any old Philo. Please be gentle in your responses
:o)DanGibsonia, PAzone 6a, where Spring is hopefully just
around the corner :o) ----- Original Message
----- From: ted.held@us.henkel.com
To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Thursday, February 22,
2007 2:33 PM Subject: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa
Leopoldina' All, OK.
So how reliable are the reports of the remaining P. spiritu-sancti in the
wild? What distinguishing marks should we be looking for? I have been
looking at the pictures in the postings and they vary quite a bit. How do
I know a real one when I see it? On what basis do the searchers in Brazil
make their determinations? Maybe the only plants left are examples of one
or another of the sham plants.
Ted._______________________________________________Aroid-l
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