Another Windmill for Tilting?

From: DAVID LEEDY <djleedy at sbcglobal.net> on 2013.01.27 at 14:19:55(22770) Condition #3 on my Permit to Import Plants: "A phytosanitary certificate must accompany all propagative material imported under this permit." I am corresponding with an individual in the UK growing plants in his back yard as I am doing here. I would like to obtain two or three bulbs of one of the plants he is growing (an Arum). The cost and other requirements of the authorities in the UK are so burdensome as to prohibit the type of exchange we would like to make. He states: "If you have tangled with Plant Health in the UK you will understand why I don't want to get wrapped up in it. Last time I worked with the system it would only accept applications for imports through the online system, and the online system would only accept shipments of fruit and vegetables in container loads. The telephone helpline advised me to lie on my application! I." Today, I received a letter from Michael Watson, Acting Executive Director of APHIS (USDA), in response to my inquiry, stating: “…there is no exception to the regulatory requirement for a phytosanitary certificate when importing small quantities of bulbs or tubers. Bulbs and tubers are a more likely pathway for pests and disease. Accordingly, we require that the importer obtain a phytosanitary certificate issued by the national plant health authorities of the country of export. These certificates provide assurance that the plant or plant product has been inspected and found free of plant pests and diseases prior to its entry into the United States. While we understand that obtaining a phytosanitary certificate may be inconvenient and can add to the cost of doing business, we assure you that this requirement is necessary to protect American agriculture.” HTML +More I really have two questions: 1. How much American agriculture is really protected by this requirement, particularly as it relates to exchanges of small quantities of bulbs and tubers between hobbyists? Is anyone aware of any studies? 2. Is this a windmill worth tilting at? Believe me, I am 73 years old, retired, and not above taking up lost causes and I have even won some of these. Please pass this on to anyone who might be able to contribute an idea or suggestion. David Leedy djleedy@sbcglobal.net ---6906265-1563119432-1359296395=:65237-- --==============16920956320755683==

From: "John Criswick" <criswick at spiceisle.com> on 2013.01.27 at 19:19:47(22771) Dear David, It has become increasingly obvious in recent years that plant health authorities are trying to make it impossible for plant collectors to transport plants from country to country, leaving only large commercial growers able to comply with their demands. This is to ignore the tremendous contribution made by non-commercial plantsmen to horticulture for centuries. To them we owe the rich diversity of horticultural material available to us. Yes it IS a cause worth battling for ! John. HTML +More From: aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of DAVID LEEDY Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:20 AM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: [Aroid-l] Another Windmill for Tilting? Condition #3 on my Permit to Import Plants: "A phytosanitary certificate must accompany all propagative material imported under this permit." I am corresponding with an individual in the UK growing plants in his back yard as I am doing here. I would like to obtain two or three bulbs of one of the plants he is growing (an Arum). The cost and other requirements of the authorities in the UK are so burdensome as to prohibit the type of exchange we would like to make. He states: "If you have tangled with Plant Health in the UK you will understand why I don't want to get wrapped up in it. Last time I worked with the system it would only accept applications for imports through the online system, and the online system would only accept shipments of fruit and vegetables in container loads. The telephone helpline advised me to lie on my application! I." Today, I received a letter from Michael Watson, Acting Executive Director of APHIS (USDA), in response to my inquiry, stating: “…there is no exception to the regulatory requirement for a phytosanitary certificate when importing small quantities of bulbs or tubers. Bulbs and tubers are a more likely pathway for pests and disease. Accordingly, we require that the importer obtain a phytosanitary certificate issued by the national plant health authorities of the country of export. These certificates provide assurance that the plant or plant product has been inspected and found free of plant pests and diseases prior to its entry into the United States. While we understand that obtaining a phytosanitary certificate may be inconvenient and can add to the cost of doing business, we assure you that this requirement is necessary to protect American agriculture.” I really have two questions: 1. How much American agriculture is really protected by this requirement, particularly as it relates to exchanges of small quantities of bulbs and tubers between hobbyists? Is anyone aware of any studies? 2. Is this a windmill worth tilting at? Believe me, I am 73 years old, retired, and not above taking up lost causes and I have even won some of these. Please pass this on to anyone who might be able to contribute an idea or suggestion. David Leedy djleedy@sbcglobal.net ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01CDFC80.398874F0-- --=============="48569265937969241==

From: Ken Mosher <ken at spatulacity.com> on 2013.01.27 at 22:29:01(22772) David, To answer your questions: 1) Probably virtually none. 2) No, I wouldn't go all quixotic on this issue. A man 1/3 of your age wouldn't get anywhere with it in his lifetime. Not that I'd ever counsel anyone to break the law (not publicly, anyway), when sending small packages via the postal service there is almost no chance the package will be opened and inspected. If you and your British trading partner were simply to box up a small number of tubers and declare something like "birthday gift" on the customs form you are both very likely to receive your packages without drama. Naturally I have no personal experience with such subterfuge, but I've heard stories whispered in the corners of smoky bars in disreputable sections of town. Good growing, Ken HTML +More On 1/27/2013 9:19 AM, DAVID LEEDY wrote: Condition #3 on my Permit to Import Plants: "A phytosanitary certificate must accompany all propagative material imported under this permit." I am corresponding with an individual in the UK growing plants in his back yard as I am doing here. I would like to obtain two or three bulbs of one of the plants he is growing (an Arum). The cost and other requirements of the authorities in the UK are so burdensome as to prohibit the type of exchange we would like to make. He states: "If you have tangled with Plant Health in the UK you will understand why I don't want to get wrapped up in it. Last time I worked with the system it would only accept applications for imports through the online system, and the online system would only accept shipments of fruit and vegetables in container loads. The telephone helpline advised me to lie on my application! I." Today, I received a letter from Michael Watson, Acting Executive Director of APHIS (USDA), in response to my inquiry, stating: “…there is no exception to the regulatory requirement for a phytosanitary certificate when importing small quantities of bulbs or tubers. Bulbs and tubers are a more likely pathway for pests and disease. Accordingly, we require that the importer obtain a phytosanitary certificate issued by the national plant health authorities of the country of export. These certificates provide assurance that the plant or plant product has been inspected and found free of plant pests and diseases prior to its entry into the United States. While we understand that obtaining a phytosanitary certificate may be inconvenient and can add to the cost of doing business, we assure you that this requirement is necessary to protect American agriculture.” I really have two questions: 1. How much American agriculture is really protected by this requirement, particularly as it relates to exchanges of small quantities of bulbs and tubers between hobbyists? Is anyone aware of any studies? 2. Is this a windmill worth tilting at? Believe me, I am 73 years old, retired, and not above taking up lost causes and I have even won some of these. Please pass this on to anyone who might be able to contribute an idea or suggestion. David Leedy djleedy@sbcglobal.net --==============�85866113872196791==

From: Theodore Held <oppenhauser2001 at gmail.com> on 2013.01.29 at 18:47:15(22774) Oh, dear, this sounds like a windmill immune to tilting. 1. How much American agriculture is really protected by this requirement, particularly as it relates to exchanges of small quantities of bulbs and tubers between hobbyists? Is anyone aware of any studies? +More My guess (and it's only a guess) is that there are none. Certainly American plants have been adversely affected over the years by imported diseases. But whether any have been short-circuited by a phytosanitary certificate is highly dubious. Look, if the certificate is issued by the exporting country, what interest is it for them to do a very good job? Further, how much money would one expect to be allocated by an exporting country to do a good job even if it were somehow in their interest to do so to save American agriculture? The overwhelming interest here would be for America to do the inspection. But even then, I wonder how effective such an effort would be. Keep in mind that they wouldn't be looking for any particular thing. Just some disease that might not even be visible by normal inspection techniques. And the effect of the particular disease might not be manifest in the exporting country because of the ecosystem there being attuned to the critters or microbes. It always seems like the diseases get out of hand only after they adjust to the ecology of the importing country. 2. Is this a windmill worth tilting at? I would not attempt it. Way too big for me. Besides, I've tilted at a few smaller windmills in my day and it's dismaying how obtuse bureaucrats can be. Ted Held. On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:19 AM, DAVID LEEDY wrote: > Condition #3 on my Permit to Import Plants: "A phytosanitary certificate > must accompany all propagative material imported under this permit." > > > > I am corresponding with an individual in the UK growing plants in his back > yard as I am doing here. I would like to obtain two or three bulbs of one > of the plants he is growing (an Arum). The cost and other requirements of > the authorities in the UK are so burdensome as to prohibit the type of > exchange we would like to make. > > > > He states: "If you have tangled with Plant Health in the UK you will > understand why I don't want to get wrapped up in it. Last time I worked w ith > the system it would only accept applications for imports through the onli ne > system, and the online system would only accept shipments of fruit and > vegetables in container loads. The telephone helpline advised me to lie on > my application! I." > > > > Today, I received a letter from Michael Watson, Acting Executive Director of > APHIS (USDA), in response to my inquiry, stating: > > > > ��there is no exception to the regulatory requirement for a phytosani tary > certificate when importing small quantities of bulbs or tubers. Bulbs and > tubers are a more likely pathway for pests and disease. Accordingly, we > require that the importer obtain a phytosanitary certificate issued by the > national plant health authorities of the country of export. These > certificates provide assurance that the plant or plant product has been > inspected and found free of plant pests and diseases prior to its entry i nto > the United States. While we understand that obtaining a phytosanitary > certificate may be inconvenient and can add to the cost of doing business, > we assure you that this requirement is necessary to protect American > agriculture.� > > > > I really have two questions: > > > > 1. How much American agriculture is really protected by this > requirement, particularly as it relates to exchanges of small quantities of > bulbs and tubers between hobbyists? Is anyone aware of any studies? > > > > 2. Is this a windmill worth tilting at? Believe me, I am 73 years > old, retired, and not above taking up lost causes and I have even won some > of these. > > > > Please pass this on to anyone who might be able to contribute an idea or > suggestion. > > > > David Leedy > > djleedy@sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Aroid-L mailing list > Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com > http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l > _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

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