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This is a continuously updated archive of the Aroid-L mailing list in a forum format - not an actual Forum. If you want to post, you will still need to register for the Aroid-L mailing list and send your postings by e-mail for moderation in the normal way.
Holes
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From: "John" <criswick at spiceisle.com>
on 2012.02.25 at 00:55:14(22605)
Can anyone say what
might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them? A typical
example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
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From: Hannon <othonna at gmail.com>
on 2012.02.26 at 00:00:24(22613)
John,
One possibile explanation that has been suggested is that leaves with perforations look like they have been eaten and this deters a potential herbivore attack because the attacker is looking for more suitable leaf material (leaves healthier, free of competition, etc.).
Another reason could be structural-- the same leaf in 'solid' form might be too heavy or prone to wind damage, while the perforated version allows more leeway to find better light situations-- longer petioles, better wind resistance, etc.
In terms of strategies adapted for similar purposes there seems to be a gray area between lobed or compound leaves and those with actual holes. In both cases the outline of the leaf blade is larger than the actual surface area. Your example, M. deliciosa, is unusual in having both lobes and holes.
Dylan Hannon
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On 24 February 2012 16:55, John wrote:
Can anyone say what
might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them? A typical
example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
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--
Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much arguing, much writing, many opinions; for opinion in good men is but knowledge in the making.
John Milton, Areopagitica: A speech for the liberty of unlicensed printing to the Parliament of England, 1644
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From: "Steve Hatfield" <moondogman at comcast.net>
on 2012.02.26 at 00:38:34(22615)
Wind protection?
Steve
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From:
aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012
7:55 PM
To: 'Discussion
of aroids'
Subject: [Aroid-l] Holes
Can anyone say what
might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them? A typical
example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
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From: Don Martinson <llmen at wi.rr.com>
on 2012.02.26 at 01:18:32(22616)
We just had a discussion about that very thing on the Facebook/Planet Aroid group.
One of the most popular opinions was that it allows more light to penetrate to the area beneath the plant or even to lower leaves on the same plant.
Just as a side note: When I was a graduate student at Marquette University, one of the doctoral students did her thesis on what causes these “holes” or slits, and it was found to be differential cell death (just in case you’re ever on “Jeopardy”).
Don Martinson
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Milwaukee, Wisconsin
mailto:llmen@wi.rr.com
On 2/24/12 6:55 PM, "John" wrote:
Can anyone say what might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them? A typical example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
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From: The Silent Seed <santoury at aol.com>
on 2012.02.26 at 03:09:14(22617)
To confuse predators (insects, etc) and to make it more difficult to land onto them, to feed upon them, is my understanding.
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-----Original Message-----
From: John
To: 'Discussion of aroids'
Sent: Sat, Feb 25, 2012 5:37 pm
Subject: [Aroid-l] Holes
Can anyone say what
might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them? A typical
example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
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http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: "Marek Argent" <abri1973 at wp.pl>
on 2012.02.26 at 01:45:33(22618)
Not to be broken by wind, rain etc. Similar purpose to spokes in bike wheels.
Marek
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----- Original Message -----
From: John
To: 'Discussion of aroids'
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 1:55 AM
Subject: [Aroid-l] Holes
Can anyone say what might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them? A typical example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
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http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
No virus found in the message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4831 - Release Date: 02/25/12
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From: Sheldon Hatheway <sfhatheway at yahoo.com>
on 2012.02.26 at 03:17:13(22619)
Interesting question! Could the holes (aren't they called fenestrations or some other big word?) possibly protect the foliage by reducing the amount of wind resistance (and possible damage) on the blade surface?
Sheldon
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From: John
To: 'Discussion of aroids'
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:55
PM
Subject: [Aroid-l] Holes
Can anyone say what might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them? A typical example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
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From: Jason Hernandez <jason.hernandez74 at yahoo.com>
on 2012.02.26 at 04:38:10(22620)
No one has figured out definitely what is the function of holes, but several ideas have been proposed in the literature. One -- which I consider the least plausible -- is to fool insects: supposedly, insects see the leaves appearing already to have been eaten and move on, as if to avoid a plant with higher concentrations of defensive compounds, or possibly competition from other insects. This theory does, however, raise questions about how important visual cues are to herbivorous insects. Another idea is that the holes increase air circulation around the leaves, possibly providing "air conditioning" or facilitating gas exchange. To me this seems more likely.
Jason
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Hernandez
Naturalist-at-Large
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 20:55:14 -0400
From: "John"
Subject: [Aroid-l] Holes
To: "'Discussion of aroids'"
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Can anyone say what might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in
them? A typical example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
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From: Alistair Hay <ajmhay at hotmail.com>
on 2012.02.26 at 06:12:07(22621)
I am not convinced any of the "ecological" explanations even begin to touch the question!
There is usually a tacit assumption that perforated leaves have evolved from unperforated leaves - hence the question 'why holes?'. But maybe they have evolved from leaves with had dissected margins - in which case the question becomes why, in their development, are these leaves dissected from within the margin instead of at the margin?
Roughly speaking, the leaf of a mature M. deliciosa has three hierarchical sets of holes - a set very big ones whose thin edges break as the leaf unfolds creating the major dissections of the leaf, a set of medium holes and a set of small holes near the midrib. Philidendron bipinnatidum on the other hand, also roughly speaking, has (up to) three sets of marginal lobes, a set of very big ones making the major divisions, which are themselves lobed (the mid-level divisions) and a few of the finest "lobes on lobes on lobes". The leaves of these two common examples are, in a sense, 'inside out' versions of each other....
Looking at it primarily as an evolution of development (interior functional) question rather than an adaptive-ecological (exterior functional) question leads one off in a rather different direction [see Hay & Mabberley in Bot. Jahrb. Syst. 113 (1991) 339-428] :-)
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Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:38:10 -0800
From: jason.hernandez74@yahoo.com
To: aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
No one has figured out definitely what is the function of holes, but several ideas have been proposed in the literature. One -- which I consider the least plausible -- is to fool insects: supposedly, insects see the leaves appearing already to have been eaten and move on, as if to avoid a plant with higher concentrations of defensive compounds, or possibly competition from other insects. This theory does, however, raise questions about how important visual cues are to herbivorous insects. Another idea is that the holes increase air circulation around the leaves, possibly providing "air conditioning" or facilitating gas exchange. To me this seems more likely.
Jason
Hernandez
Naturalist-at-Large
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 20:55:14 -0400
From: "John" <criswick@spiceisle.com>
Subject: [Aroid-l] Holes
To: "'Discussion of aroids'" <aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000487290283@cgpfe4.candwall.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Can anyone say what might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in
them? A typical example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: Zanezirklejr at aol.com
on 2012.02.26 at 19:02:12(22623)
There isn't a purpose, its just a genetic factor they have. Plants like monstera have huge leaves and with the wind it allows the plant to pass air through the leaf without ripping it apart. My monstera has 2 and 3 foot wide leaves on it but its inside.
In a message dated 2/25/2012 5:37:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, criswick@spiceisle.com writes:
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Can anyone say what might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them? A typical example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
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Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: "E.Vincent Morano" <ironious2 at yahoo.com>
on 2012.02.27 at 02:16:47(22626)
If these are tropical plants then perhaps is is so they dont get destroyed in tropical storms. If the plants have a weak root system and coulds easily bee uprooted then I think this is the likely reason. But now another question arises; Were they created like this or were the leaves full and somewhere along they line developed holes in them to adapt?
From: aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 7:55 PM
To: ' Discussion of aroids '
Subject: [Aroid-l] Holes
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Can anyone say what might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them? A typical example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
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http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: =?iso-8859-1?B?ZGF2aWQgYnL2ZGVyYmF1ZXI=?= <david_dav44 at hotmail.com>
on 2012.02.27 at 08:18:31(22630)
There is a famous article dealing with structures and their supposed functions from Gould and Lewontin, which might be interesting in context of the holes and Alistair's comment:
The Spandrels of San
Marco and the Panglossian Paradigm: A Critique of the Adaptationist
Programme
The article can be found on the internet.
Yours,
David Broederbauer
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From: ajmhay@hotmail.com
To: aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 17:12:07 +1100
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
I am not convinced any of the "ecological" explanations even begin to touch the question!
There is usually a tacit assumption that perforated leaves have evolved from unperforated leaves - hence the question 'why holes?'. But maybe they have evolved from leaves with had dissected margins - in which case the question becomes why, in their development, are these leaves dissected from within the margin instead of at the margin?
Roughly speaking, the leaf of a mature M. deliciosa has three hierarchical sets of holes - a set very big ones whose thin edges break as the leaf unfolds creating the major dissections of the leaf, a set of medium holes and a set of small holes near the midrib. Philidendron bipinnatidum on the other hand, also roughly speaking, has (up to) three sets of marginal lobes, a set of very big ones making the major divisions, which are themselves lobed (the mid-level divisions) and a few of the finest "lobes on lobes on lobes". The leaves of these two common examples are, in a sense, 'inside out' versions of each other....
Looking at it primarily as an evolution of development (interior functional) question rather than an adaptive-ecological (exterior functional) question leads one off in a rather different direction [see Hay & Mabberley in Bot. Jahrb. Syst. 113 (1991) 339-428] :-)
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:38:10 -0800
From: jason.hernandez74@yahoo.com
To: aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
No one has figured out definitely what is the function of holes, but several ideas have been proposed in the literature. One -- which I consider the least plausible -- is to fool insects: supposedly, insects see the leaves appearing already to have been eaten and move on, as if to avoid a plant with higher concentrations of defensive compounds, or possibly competition from other insects. This theory does, however, raise questions about how important visual cues are to herbivorous insects. Another idea is that the holes increase air circulation around the leaves, possibly providing "air conditioning" or facilitating gas exchange. To me this seems more likely.
Jason
Hernandez
Naturalist-at-Large
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 20:55:14 -0400
From: "John" <criswick@spiceisle.com>
Subject: [Aroid-l] Holes
To: "'Discussion of aroids'" <aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000487290283@cgpfe4.candwall.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Can anyone say what might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in
them? A typical example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
_______________________________________________
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Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: Kyle Baker <kylefletcherbaker at yahoo.com>
on 2012.02.27 at 09:33:01(22631)
And it is out of doors exposed to the elements?
Mr. Kyle Fletcher Baker, MCN
Maine Zone 5
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From: "Zanezirklejr@aol.com"
To: aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
There isn't a purpose, its just a genetic factor they have. Plants like monstera have huge leaves and with the wind it allows the plant to pass air through the leaf without ripping it apart. My monstera has 2 and 3 foot wide leaves on it but its inside.
In a message dated 2/25/2012 5:37:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, criswick@spiceisle.com writes:
Can anyone say what might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them? A typical example would be Monstera deliciosa.
John.
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
_______________________________________________
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Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
--1874583742-1448651002-1330335181=:40202--
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From: Jason Hernandez <jason.hernandez74 at yahoo.com>
on 2012.02.27 at 17:11:39(22632)
The difficulty I have with the "tropical storms" idea is that some fenestrated Monstera spp. occur in regions not subject to tropical storms, e.g. the premontane cloud forest of the Pacific coast of Ecuador. I will let growers address the matter of whether scandent Monstera with fenestrated leaves are any easier to pull away from the substrate than, say, scandent Philodendron with entire leaves.
I am not sure what you mean by "created." We may suppose that the primeval leaf was linear, like the branches of Equisetum or the needles of a conifer (think also of Lycopodium and Araucaria), and that the next evolutionary step was a broadening, so as to capture more sun. All the variations in leaves we see are developments in response to the requirements of different niches. The juvenile-stage leaves of a
Monstera probably approximate the ancestral leaves, in parallel with the way various organisms' embryonic development hints at their evolutionary stages.
Jason Hernandez
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Naturalist-at-Large
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:16:47 -0800 (PST)
From: "E.Vincent Morano"
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
To: Discussion of aroids
Message-ID:
ymailto="mailto:1330309007.14051.YahooMailNeo@web126004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com" href="mailto:1330309007.14051.YahooMailNeo@web126004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com"1330309007.14051.YahooMailNeo@web126004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com/a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
If these are tropical plants then perhaps is is so they dont get destroyed in tropical storms. If the plants have a weak root system and coulds easily bee uprooted then I think this is the likely reason. But now another question arises; Were they created like this or were the leaves full and somewhere along they line developed holes in them to adapt?
________________________________
From:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com [mailto:
href="mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com">aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012
7:55 PM
To: ' Discussion of aroids '
Subject: [Aroid-l] Holes
?
Can anyone say what
might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them?? A typical
example would be Monstera deliciosa.
?
John.
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From: hermine <hermine at endangeredspecies.com>
on 2012.03.01 at 02:34:58(22633)
>
>I am not sure what you mean by "created." We may suppose that the
>primeval leaf was linear, like the branches of Equisetum or the
>needles of a conifer (think also of Lycopodium and Araucaria), and
>that the next evolutionary step was a broadening, so as to capture
>more sun. All the variations in leaves we see are developments in
>response to the requirements of different niches. The
>juvenile-stage leaves of a Monstera probably approximate the
>ancestral leaves, in parallel with the way various organisms'
>embryonic development hints at their evolutionary stages.
I always thought that wind passage had something to do with it as a
FAR better idea than Banana foliage, which shreds HIDEOUSLY in the
wind. But ultimately I feel this is a question like "Who made G-d?".
hermine
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ps why is broccoli like that?
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From: Peter Boyce <phymatarum at googlemail.com>
on 2012.03.01 at 03:11:23(22634)
Hi Jason,
On what basis must the 'primeval' leaf be linear? Some of the most complex leaves of extant plants are those of fern and fern-allies, the lineages of which well-predate "modern" families as the aroids.
I urge everyone to read: Hay & Mabberly (1991). Transference of function and the origins of the aroids - Botanische Jahrbcher fr Systematik 113(23), 339-428]. I can send the pdf to anyone unable access it on-line.
Peter
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On 28 February 2012 01:11, Jason Hernandez wrote:
The difficulty I have with the "tropical storms" idea is that some fenestrated Monstera spp. occur in regions not subject to tropical storms, e.g. the premontane cloud forest of the Pacific coast of Ecuador. I will let growers address the matter of whether scandent Monstera with fenestrated leaves are any easier to pull away from the substrate than, say, scandent Philodendron with entire leaves.
I am not sure what you mean by "created." We may suppose that the primeval leaf was linear, like the branches of Equisetum or the needles of a conifer (think also of Lycopodium and Araucaria), and that the next evolutionary step was a broadening, so as to capture more sun. All the variations in leaves we see are developments in response to the requirements of different niches. The juvenile-stage leaves of a Monstera probably approximate the ancestral leaves, in parallel with the way various organisms' embryonic development hints at their evolutionary stages.
Jason Hernandez
Naturalist-at-Large
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:16:47 -0800 (PST)
From: "E.Vincent Morano"
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
To: Discussion of aroids
Message-ID:
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From: "E.Vincent Morano" <ironious2 at yahoo.com>
on 2012.03.01 at 03:33:44(22635)
What I mean by created was is in made that way originally by God. I dont believe we evolved from apes thru evolution. Buy I do believe plants and animals adapt not evolve. Because evolution implies that they eventually turn from one genus to another over time. I do believe that thinks were created with the ability to adapt to changing environments. So Im wondering were these plant alway with holes in the leaves or at onetime did they have full leaves and slowly adapted or perhaps through a freak genetic expression shat happens to be good caused them to have holes in the leaves.
When you look at DNA its clearly a viable code and it simply isnt possible for these complex codes to be in existence with out a writer. If you are familiar with mathematics and
probabilities then you know that if the odds of something happening is is low enough past a certain point then its considered impossible. The possibility in which certain conditions are wight where in the primordial soup can spontaneously spawn life are so incredibly low that according to mathematical probabilities its impossible, cant happen. You have higher odds what while you are sitting at your desk reading this that a pot of petunias could spontaneously come into existence and sit on your desk....just to put it into some perspective for you.
Take for example one cell in your liver and the thousands of complex functions that go on inside that cell ever day just in that one cell. You have a higher chance of getting struck by lightning 27 times in the same day then for this to be a result of evolution.
Now I do believe in creation but I dont
believe what these "creationists" believe that the earth was made in 7 day. Its not possible, I prefer to think of these creative days as creative time periods or epochs. Although there were probably a few more then 7.
From: Jason Hernandez
| HTML +More |
To: "aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com"
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
The difficulty I have with the "tropical storms" idea is that some fenestrated Monstera spp. occur in regions not subject to tropical storms, e.g. the premontane cloud forest of the Pacific coast of Ecuador. I will let growers address the matter of whether scandent Monstera with fenestrated leaves are any easier to pull away from the substrate than, say, scandent Philodendron with entire leaves.
I am not sure what you mean by "created." We may suppose that the primeval leaf was linear, like the branches of Equisetum or the needles of a conifer (think also of Lycopodium and Araucaria), and that the next evolutionary step was a broadening, so as to capture more sun. All the variations in leaves we see are developments in response to the requirements of different niches. The
juvenile-stage leaves of a Monstera probably approximate the ancestral leaves, in parallel with the way various organisms' embryonic development hints at their evolutionary stages.
Jason Hernandez
Naturalist-at-Large
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:16:47 -0800 (PST)
From: "E.Vincent Morano"
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
To: Discussion of aroids
href="mailto:aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com"aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com/a>
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
If these are tropical plants then perhaps is is so they dont get destroyed in tropical storms. If the plants have a weak root system and coulds easily bee uprooted then I think this is the likely reason. But now another question arises; Were they created like this or were the leaves full and somewhere along they line developed holes in them to adapt?
________________________________
From:
href="mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com">aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012
7:55 PM
To: ' Discussion of aroids '
Subject: [Aroid-l] Holes
?
Can anyone say what
might be the biological purpose of leaves with holes in them?? A typical
example would be Monstera deliciosa.
?
John.
_______________________________________________
Aroid-L mailing list
Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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From: "Sherry Gates" <TheTropix at msn.com>
on 2012.03.02 at 14:01:05(22636)
Very well said, Mr. Morano!!!
Sherry Gates
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----- Original Message -----
From: E.Vincent Morano
To: Discussion of aroids
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
What I mean by created was is in made that way originally by God. I dont believe we evolved from apes thru evolution. Buy I do believe plants and animals adapt not evolve. Because evolution implies that they eventually turn from one genus to another over time. I do believe that thinks were created with the ability to adapt to changing environments. So Im wondering were these plant alway with holes in the leaves or at onetime did they have full leaves and slowly adapted or perhaps through a freak genetic expression shat happens to be good caused them to have holes in the leaves.
When you look at DNA its clearly a viable code and it simply isnt possible for these complex codes to be in existence with out a writer. If you are familiar with mathematics and probabilities then you know that if the odds of something happening is is low enough past a certain point then its considered impossible. The possibility in which certain conditions are wight where in the primordial soup can spontaneously spawn life are so incredibly low that according to mathematical probabilities its impossible, cant happen. You have higher odds what while you are sitting at your desk reading this that a pot of petunias could spontaneously come into existence and sit on your desk....just to put it into some perspective for you.
Take for example one cell in your liver and the thousands of complex functions that go on inside that cell ever day just in that one cell. You have a higher chance of getting struck by lightning 27 times in the same day then for this to be a result of evolution.
Now I do believe in creation but I dont believe what these "creationists" believe that the earth was made in 7 day. Its not possible, I prefer to think of these creative days as creative time periods or epochs. Although there were probably a few more then 7.
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From: Kyle Baker <kylefletcherbaker at yahoo.com>
on 2012.03.04 at 12:45:39(22640)
I have always leaned towards an initial creation that was followed by evolution. But the argument for both sides is as endless as the myriad of snowflakes that fall from the sky...
Mr. Kyle Fletcher Baker, MCN
Maine Zone 5
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From: E.Vincent Morano
To: Discussion of aroids
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
What I mean by created was is in made that way originally by God. I dont believe we evolved from apes thru evolution. Buy I do believe plants and animals adapt not evolve. Because evolution implies that they eventually turn from one genus to another over time. I do believe that thinks were created with the ability to adapt to changing environments. So Im wondering were these plant alway with holes in the leaves or at onetime did they have full leaves and slowly adapted or perhaps through a freak genetic expression shat happens to be good caused them to have holes in the leaves.
When you look at DNA its clearly a viable code and it simply isnt possible for these complex codes to be in existence with out a writer. If you are familiar with mathematics and probabilities then you know that if the odds of something happening is is low enough past a certain point then its considered impossible. The possibility in which certain conditions are wight where in the primordial soup can spontaneously spawn life are so incredibly low that according to mathematical probabilities its impossible, cant happen. You have higher odds what while you are sitting at your desk reading this that a pot of petunias could spontaneously come into existence and sit on your desk....just to put it into some perspective for you.
Take for example one cell in your liver and the thousands of complex functions that go on inside that cell ever day just in that one cell. You have a higher chance of getting struck by lightning 27 times in the same day then for this to be a result of evolution.
Now I do believe in creation but I dont believe what these "creationists" believe that the earth was made in 7 day. Its not possible, I prefer to think of these creative days as creative time periods or epochs. Although there were probably a few more then 7.
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From: Jason Hernandez <jason.hernandez74 at yahoo.com>
on 2012.03.08 at 15:55:45(22648)
I will address several respondants at once.
hermine: "ps why is broccoli like that?"
Broccoli is a highly domesticated form of sea kale, as are kale, collard, cabbage, and cauliflower. If you look at a broccoli plant growing, you see the big, collard-like leaves, with the broccoli head coming up in the middle. Let that broccoli head grow without picking it, and it will turn into a flower stalk much like those of various wild mustards. Broccoli is like that because over the years, people selected for a thickened flower stalk with buds packed tightly together and taking longer to open.
Peter Boyce: "On what basis would the primeval leaf be linear?"
I was thinking of such fern allies as Equisetum and Lycopoduim, as well as quillworts, all of which have various combinations of linear structures which function as leaves. It seems to me these would have been derived from the strings of cells in filamentous algae, but I could be wrong about that.
Vincent: "What I mean by created was is in made that way originally by God."
I am familiar with all of this, as I was raised a creationist. I found it left too much unexplained, and had to do a lot of interpretation to make the science fit the foregone conclusion: as you do admit, organisms have the capacity to adapt, and this is the essence of evolution. As to the origin of DNA and its authorship, I never have understood molecular biology, so I refrain from comment.
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From: "John" <criswick at spiceisle.com>
on 2012.03.11 at 13:12:24(22656)
This was written to me
by Kirsten Llamas, author of Tropical Flowering Plants, and she has given me
permission to post it.
John.
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“Subject: RE:
[Aroid-l] Holes
The answer to the
problem, if there IS one, is worthy of courses in physiology and anatomy. No
one should think that science challenges their belief system. One only needs to
have a little flexibility when interpreting the time references in the bible.
“a “day” can have multiple interpretations. We often hear the
expression “in my day”, to mean the entire period of our youth.
Days before there “was light” is not something we can interpret
since night and day is 24 hours to us and there are as many days in a year as
it takes for Earth to circle the sun. Without the sun’s light what was a
day worth?
It is important to
use the right terms. NO scientist should use the expression that humans
evolved from apes (there were racist connotations associated with apes
and monkeys at the time). The correct representation is that we share common
ancestors that were neither ape nor human as we know them today. The difference
is not something we have to argue about. Apes certainly evolved in a different
way. However humans share almost the same DNA as apes. Interestingly enough
apes are much better adapted to their niches on Earth than humans are. Apes owe
their destruction – not to their environment but to human predation.
While they thrive given their natural habitat, hundreds of thousands of human
babies die every year because we are so poorly adapted that they destroy their
own habitat. But we are also cleaver so some of us survive in spite of our poor
adaptations.
Most people think
that evolution takes hundreds or thousands of years. Wrong. Many studies,
including some on bird adaptation of the Galapagos and plants near the HI
volcanoes prove that adaptation can take place in a matter of a few
generations. This is a separate process from gene changes we call mutations
which happen all the time.
Mutations may be
caused by natural cosmic rays, chemical or accidental changes in the gene
arrangement during cell division. Cell division goes on all the time and it is
a marvelous process and a wonder that it does work a large percentage of the
time. Often cells do NOT divide properly either during mitosis (leading to such
illnesses as cancer) or during meiosis (reduction division into sperm and egg).
Most mutations are lethal or weaken a species though not always. Many
miscarriages are caused by improper division of the gametes or during
fertilization. Some birth defects are the product of improper division of cells
during gestation, others are inherited.
DNA changes do not
mean that plants or animals flip genera. DNA changes are not even necessary to
produce somatic changes. The vast majority of our genes are inactive. For
various reasons certain genes are activated while others become quiescent. If
environmental conditions are suddenly changed genes may be activated that were
quiescent. In a Galapagos study a certain bird living isolated on an Island has a delicate beak that thrives when conditions
are wet, but when a dry period arrives, within a generation or two the birds
develop beaks that can crack the seed of drought tolerant plants. In another
studies in HI, the flow of lava streams separated a large population of
different species into smaller gene pools in many separate niches. Within each
nich different varieties evolved in a few generations.
Recessive genes may
suddenly become the majority rather than the normal minority of 1 in 4. [e.g.
if brown-eyed humans who carry recessive blue eye genes are segregated
from dominant brown eyed people, within 2 generations there will be blue
eyed people running around in the segregated population. There is no particular
advantage of brown eyes over blue eyes. But Europeans are much more often blue
eyed than Africans and Asians who are usually brown eyed.
In addition the
study of biology (forget the word Evolution) shows that plants and animals
produce mutations constantly but most are lethal. Look at the numbers of seeds
produced in one pod/capsule that do not sprout and those that sprout may be
stronger or weaker (or pups with a stronger or weaker sibling). Only those with
good survival characteristics are able to reproduce in numbers that can survive
living in their niche. (e.g. plants in cultivation would not otherwise survive
in the wild that have certain spontaneous mutations/ sports such as too much
variegation which lack sufficient chlorophyll. These plants often
“revert” spontaneously to the norm).
Mutations are rarely
beneficial to a plant or animal. The benefit may be viable in one type climate
but not another. If there is no rain for a few years than one variation of a
species may survive and another die off. That explains why species with wide
distribution – e.g. Tecoma stans ot Tabebuia impetiginosa – may
have adapted to wet and dry niches, poor or rich soil. Conversely mutations
that are not beneficial will die off. We have that problem all the time trying
to cultivate the same plant in our different gardens. Of course we can nurse a
plant along in the garden but nature is not going to help poorly adapted
species. It kills them off ruthlessly. Nature does not PRODUCE adaptations.
Many characteristics are produced and only those that are advantageous survive.
An understand of various forms of pollination is helpful to understand plant
distribution and adaptations.
Therefore it is not
necessary to explain why one species of Monstera has holes in the leaves while
another species leaves are deeply lobed. But if you look carefully the holes in
Monstera leaves represent the line along which the lobes would form but are
discontinued at intervals near the midrib by the lamina. The holes simply
represent incomplete division of the blade into lobes. There may be none or
several reasons why lobes are a beneficial. Ask yourself why the juvenile
leaves do not have the holes. A good reason could be that the lack of light at
ground level calls for more chlorophyll producing area. Also leaves in shade
tend to become larger (relative to the size of the plant of course). Leaves of
the same species may evolve from simple to divided, e.g. Tabebuia spp and
then back from 5 divided to 3 (trifoliolate) or one (unifoliolate).
Finally there are
fossils that provide evidence of evolution by passive adaptation through many
generations. Only higher animals are able to adapt purposefully and
individually.
The buildup of
microscopic organic compounds that border on life forms is all around us. There
are microbes and viruses that are considered to be sub-living but reproduce
through infection of living cells. There are probably a great variety of
potential life forms in the oceans at certain depth and temperature. Or perhaps
all around us. When do organic compounds cross over into living? We often
contemplate life on other planets. It will not resemble life as we know it so
would we recognize it? Look how long it took us to identify HIV and we knew it
had to be there. So what is happening microscopically with the things we do not
even know are there.
What is really to
the point is the concept of consciousness. At what level of life does it begin.
How do we think?
Biological processes
converge and reform. We die, our body degenerates into various compounds and
atoms that are taken up by other living organisms. We eat and breathe in the
molecules of what were once parts of other plants and animals or other humans
that came before us and they are at least temporarily part of our bodies.
We give them life though we do not give them consciousness. Or if we are what
we eat, then what?
We humans
can’t answer everything nor has anyone proven anything beyond a
reasonable doubt. It REALLY doesn’t matter. These theories are not mutually
exclusive. We just have to open our minds to the means by which they connect.”
From: aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com
[mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On
Behalf Of Jason Hernandez
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012
11:56 AM
To: aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Holes
I will
address several respondants at once.
hermine:
"ps why is broccoli like that?"
Broccoli is a
highly domesticated form of sea kale, as are kale, collard, cabbage, and
cauliflower. If you look at a broccoli plant growing, you see the big,
collard-like leaves, with the broccoli head coming up in the middle. Let
that broccoli head grow without picking it, and it will turn into a flower
stalk much like those of various wild mustards. Broccoli is like that
because over the years, people selected for a thickened flower stalk with buds
packed tightly together and taking longer to open.
Peter Boyce:
"On what basis would the primeval leaf be linear?"
I was
thinking of such fern allies as Equisetum and Lycopoduim, as well as
quillworts, all of which have various combinations of linear structures which
function as leaves. It seems to me these would have been derived from the
strings of cells in filamentous algae, but I could be wrong about that.
Vincent:
"What I mean by created was is in made that way originally by God."
I am familiar
with all of this, as I was raised a creationist. I found it left too much
unexplained, and had to do a lot of interpretation to make the science fit the
foregone conclusion: as you do admit, organisms have the capacity to adapt, and
this is the essence of evolution. As to the origin of DNA and its
authorship, I never have understood molecular biology, so I refrain from
comment.
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