Wikipedia`s falsehoods

From: <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2009.01.31 at 13:39:10(19008) Dear Ted and all Aroid Friends, Thanks, Ted! By now it SHOULD be obvious that Wikipedia is a VERY unreliable source of information on aroids or ANY material.  I would NOT be surprised if it has become a ''tool'' of persons who are using it to push THEIR agenda.   "They" can post ''their'' agendas (which may be VERY inaccurate, as we have seen in this examples quoted here by Ted, plus others quoted previously), and ''they'' can keep editing any correction to THEIR false entry back to ''their'' original inaccurate posting, so that ''their'' misinformation is spread as being factual.  This by Wikipedia,  a source, which to most of the general public, is an aparently ''reliable'' source''.  Not so!!! Enough said.   ''There are none so blind as those who WILL not see''. Julius HTML +More Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:42:01 -0500 From: oppenhauser2001@gmail.com To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Subject: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia Julius and Steve, and others interested in Truth and Honesty,   Let me tell you a story about Wikipedia.   A couple of weeks ago I came across a book in my "weirdness" section called "You and Your Palm", by a guy named "Cheiro" (pronounced like the two Greek letters Chi and Rho). It turns out he was a late 1920s and early 30s sort of palm reader to the stars. The book contains palm prints and diagnoses of a number of famous movie stars of the day. I don't know how you feel about palm reading and these related skills, but I am not a fan except in the sense of mockery and derision.   Well, I looked up the good doctor on Wikipedia and found a very flattering account of his life. Among the testimonials to his greatness as a seer was what was purported to be an excerpt from a guest book he kept. The entry was from Mark Twain and indicated how pleased Twain was with the results of his sessions with the master.   As it happens I know some things about Mark Twain. Among them is that Mark Twain was a huge skeptic. In fact, there is a whole section in his autobiography (Chapter 13) in which he discusses some controlled experiments he had done with both palm readers and phrenologists of his day. Interestingly, they all concluded that one thing his personality lacked was a sense of humor (!). These were done by Mark Twain (and his agent) without revealing his identity. Curiously, when he presented himself to a couple of the same jokers as his real self, they managed to conjure up that he had a strong sense of humor. So much for the veracity of the occult sciences.   Anyway, I thought I'd add an item to Wikipedia relating to this and suggested that the views quoted there might be compared with Mark Twain's own testimony with its not-so-veiled skepticism about same. I was diplomatic. I merely pointed readers to something that might shed more light on the subject.   This morning I checked the Wikipedia site and, sure enough, my comment had been deleted and the entry about Mark Twain's endorsement of Cheiro's abilities remained unaltered. In the past two weeks I suppose some partisan of palmistry had reversed my efforts.   I was immediately doubtful when I first learned of Wikipedia. I have stronger doubts about it now, after my experience. Better, I think, is to rely on peer-reviewed matter, such as Aroideana, for one's information about scientific topics. For non-scientific topics we are at the mercy of our own judgment, I suppose.   Ted. --_68b85232-6204-466c-bff6-656c29eb61b4_----==============#57028830626925937=

From: "E.Vincent Morano" <ironious2 at yahoo.com> on 2009.02.01 at 07:37:45(19016) any idea's on where to find an unbiased source? --- On Sat, 1/31/09, ju-bo@msn.com wrote: From: ju-bo@msn.com HTML +More Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia`s falsehoods To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 5:39 AM Dear Ted and all Aroid Friends, Thanks, Ted! By now it SHOULD be obvious that Wikipedia is a VERY unreliable source of information on aroids or ANY material. I would NOT be surprised if it has become a ''tool'' of persons who are using it to push THEIR agenda. "They" can post ''their'' agendas (which may be VERY inaccurate, as we have seen in this examples quoted here by Ted, plus others quoted previously), and ''they'' can keep editing any correction to THEIR false entry back to ''their'' original inaccurate posting, so that ''their'' misinformation is spread as being factual. This by Wikipedia, a source, which to most of the general public, is an aparently ''reliable'' source''. Not so!!! Enough said. ''There are none so blind as those who WILL not see''. Julius Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:42:01 -0500 From: oppenhauser2001@gmail.com To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Subject: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia Julius and Steve, and others interested in Truth and Honesty, Let me tell you a story about Wikipedia. A couple of weeks ago I came across a book in my "weirdness" section called "You and Your Palm", by a guy named "Cheiro" (pronounced like the two Greek letters Chi and Rho). It turns out he was a late 1920s and early 30s sort of palm reader to the stars. The book contains palm prints and diagnoses of a number of famous movie stars of the day. I don't know how you feel about palm reading and these related skills, but I am not a fan except in the sense of mockery and derision. Well, I looked up the good doctor on Wikipedia and found a very flattering account of his life. Among the testimonials to his greatness as a seer was what was purported to be an excerpt from a guest book he kept. The entry was from Mark Twain and indicated how pleased Twain was with the results of his sessions with the master. As it happens I know some things about Mark Twain. Among them is that Mark Twain was a huge skeptic. In fact, there is a whole section in his autobiography (Chapter 13) in which he discusses some controlled experiments he had done with both palm readers and phrenologists of his day. Interestingly, they all concluded that one thing his personality lacked was a sense of humor (!). These were done by Mark Twain (and his agent) without revealing his identity. Curiously, when he presented himself to a couple of the same jokers as his real self, they managed to conjure up that he had a strong sense of humor. So much for the veracity of the occult sciences. Anyway, I thought I'd add an item to Wikipedia relating to this and suggested that the views quoted there might be compared with Mark Twain's own testimony with its not-so-veiled skepticism about same. I was diplomatic. I merely pointed readers to something that might shed more light on the subject. This morning I checked the Wikipedia site and, sure enough, my comment had been deleted and the entry about Mark Twain's endorsement of Cheiro's abilities remained unaltered. In the past two weeks I suppose some partisan of palmistry had reversed my efforts. I was immediately doubtful when I first learned of Wikipedia. I have stronger doubts about it now, after my experience. Better, I think, is to rely on peer-reviewed matter, such as Aroideana, for one's information about scientific topics. For non-scientific topics we are at the mercy of our own judgment, I suppose. Ted. _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l --0-1666857062-1233473865=:98273----==============31943519053492732=

From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2009.02.01 at 16:04:13(19019) Consider referring to any of thesources I listed a few days ago. All are from scientific sources andif you follow the method I outlined on using Dr. Croat's field notesfrom TROPICOS in my previous note you'll get the best informationpossible. I'm listing the links here again: TROPICOS which is aservice of the Missouri Botanical Garden http://www.tropicos.org/ The International Aroid Society. You'll find tons of good info here! http://www.aroid.org/ The Aroid l Index. To use this try typing in the name of the plant andthen click on all the years. The system will search for anydiscussions of that species from the beginning of Aroid l C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Desktop\Aroid l achieves search.mht The International Plant Names Index which is a service of the RoyalBotanic Garden Kew in London. This is considered the ultimate sourceby many but rarely lists details and only confirms the validity ofnames. http://www.ipni.org/index.html Kew Monocot Checklist. This site sometimes contains good info aboutwhy a plant is a synonym instead of the currently accepted name. C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Desktop\Kew World Monocots ChecklistSeries.mht The Kew World Checklist of Selected Plant Families http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/prepareChecklist.do;jsessionidÔE7F43755D6B641D Cate Araceae http://www.cate-araceae.org/index.do;jsessionid–982249A0181F1EB1E74E6CEB9841D4 In addition, look up any of the major botanical garden websites. Sometimes you will find the information you need. Of course, you should add all of Dr. Croat's journals on Philodendron,Anthurium and other genera you are interested in learning about toyou library. Be certain you own a copy of Deni Bown's book Aroids,Plants of the Arum Family. One of the ultimate scientific sourcebooks is The Genera of Araceae by Mayo, Bogner and Boyce. Manyof you often read Pete Boyce's material right here! Julius and I bothdepend on that text heavily since you can learn very detailed info thatis rarely available in other sources. You can order just about all of these from the IAS. Steve Lucas HTML +More www.ExoticRainforest.com E.Vincent Morano wrote: any idea's on where to find an unbiased source? --- On Sat, 1/31/09, ju-bo@msn.com wrote: From:ju-bo@msn.com Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia`s falsehoods To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 5:39 AM Dear Ted and all Aroid Friends, Thanks, Ted! By now it SHOULD be obvious that Wikipedia is a VERY unreliable sourceof information on aroids or ANY material. I would NOT be surprised if it has become a ''tool'' of persons who areusing it to push THEIR agenda. "They" can post ''their'' agendas(which may be VERY inaccurate, as we have seen in this examples quotedhere by Ted, plus others quoted previously), and ''they'' can keepediting any correction to THEIR false entry back to ''their'' originalinaccurate posting, so that ''their'' misinformation is spread as beingfactual. This by Wikipedia, a source, which to most of the generalpublic, is an aparently ''reliable'' source''. Not so!!! Enough said. ''There are none so blind as those who WILL not see''. Julius Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:42:01 -0500 From: oppenhauser2001@gmail.com To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Subject: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia Julius and Steve, and others interested in Truth and Honesty, Let me tell you a story about Wikipedia. A couple of weeks ago I came across a book in my"weirdness" section called "You and Your Palm", by a guy named "Cheiro"(pronounced like the two Greek letters Chi and Rho). It turns out hewas a late 1920s and early 30s sort of palm reader to the stars. Thebook contains palm prints and diagnoses of a number of famous moviestars of the day. I don't know how you feel about palm reading andthese related skills, but I am not a fan except in the sense of mockeryand derision. Well, I looked up the good doctor on Wikipedia and founda very flattering account of his life. Among the testimonials to hisgreatness as a seer was what was purported to be an excerpt from aguest book he kept. The entry was from Mark Twain and indicated howpleased Twain was with the results of his sessions with the master. As it happens I know some things about Mark Twain. Amongthem is that Mark Twain was a huge skeptic. In fact, there is a wholesection in his autobiography (Chapter 13) in which he discusses somecontrolled experiments he had done with both palm readers andphrenologists of his day. Interestingly, they all concluded that onething his personality lacked was a sense of humor (!). These were doneby Mark Twain (and his agent) without revealing his identity.Curiously, when he presented himself to a couple of the same jokers ashis real self, they managed to conjure up that he had a strong sense ofhumor. So much for the veracity of the occult sciences. Anyway, I thought I'd add an item to Wikipedia relatingto this and suggested that the views quoted there might be comparedwith Mark Twain's own testimony with its not-so-veiled skepticism aboutsame. I was diplomatic. I merely pointed readers to something thatmight shed more light on the subject. This morning I checked the Wikipedia site and, sureenough, my comment had been deleted and the entry about Mark Twain'sendorsement of Cheiro's abilities remained unaltered. In the past twoweeks I suppose some partisan of palmistry had reversed my efforts. I was immediately doubtful when I first learned ofWikipedia. I have stronger doubts about it now, after my experience.Better, I think, is to rely on peer-reviewed matter, such as Aroideana,for one's information about scientific topics. For non-scientifictopics we are at the mercy of our own judgment, I suppose. Ted. _______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l --------------040408000909060605090007

From: <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2009.02.01 at 16:19:05(19020) If you Google most species or ''things'' you may need information on, a list of possibilites comes up, choose the best ones you can, avoiding Wikipedia. Another way to go (on Aroids, anyhow), is ask Steve Lucas for the legit. botanical sites where good (but not always perfect!) info is posted by recognized institutions such as Kew gardens and MOBOT. Julius HTML +More Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:37:45 -0800 From: ironious2@yahoo.com To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia`s falsehoods any idea's on where to find an unbiased source? --- On Sat, 1/31/09, ju-bo@msn.com <ju-bo@msn.com> wrote: From: ju-bo@msn.com <ju-bo@msn.com> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia`s falsehoods To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 5:39 AM Dear Ted and all Aroid Friends, Thanks, Ted! By now it SHOULD be obvious that Wikipedia is a VERY unreliable source of information on aroids or ANY material.  I would NOT be surprised if it has become a ''tool'' of persons who are using it to push THEIR agenda.   "They" can post ''their'' agendas (which may be VERY inaccurate, as we have seen in this examples quoted here by Ted, plus others quoted previously), and ''they'' can keep editing any correction to THEIR false entry back to ''their'' original inaccurate posting, so that ''their'' misinformation is spread as being factual.  This by Wikipedia,  a source, which to most of the general public, is an aparently ''reliable'' source''.  Not so!!! Enough said.   ''There are none so blind as those who WILL not see''. Julius Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:42:01 -0500 From: oppenhauser2001@gmail.com To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com Subject: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia Julius and Steve, and others interested in Truth and Honesty,   Let me tell you a story about Wikipedia.   A couple of weeks ago I came across a book in my "weirdness" section called "You and Your Palm", by a guy named "Cheiro" (pronounced like the two Greek letters Chi and Rho). It turns out he was a late 1920s and early 30s sort of palm reader to the stars. The book contains palm prints and diagnoses of a number of famous movie stars of the day. I don't know how you feel about palm reading and these related skills, but I am not a fan except in the sense of mockery and derision.   Well, I looked up the good doctor on Wikipedia and found a very flattering account of his life. Among the testimonials to his greatness as a seer was what was purported to be an excerpt from a guest book he kept. The entry was from Mark Twain and indicated how pleased Twain was with the results of his sessions with the master.   As it happens I know some things about Mark Twain. Among them is that Mark Twain was a huge skeptic. In fact, there is a whole section in his autobiography (Chapter 13) in which he discusses some controlled experiments he had done with both palm readers and phrenologists of his day. Interestingly, they all concluded that one thing his personality lacked was a sense of humor (!). These were done by Mark Twain (and his agent) without revealing his identity. Curiously, when he presented himself to a couple of the same jokers as his real self, they managed to conjure up that he had a strong sense of humor. So much for the veracity of the occult sciences.   Anyway, I thought I'd add an item to Wikipedia relating to this and suggested that the views quoted there might be compared with Mark Twain's own testimony with its not-so-veiled skepticism about same. I was diplomatic. I merely pointed readers to something that might shed more light on the subject.   This morning I checked the Wikipedia site and, sure enough, my comment had been deleted and the entry about Mark Twain's endorsement of Cheiro's abilities remained unaltered. In the past two weeks I suppose some partisan of palmistry had reversed my efforts.   I was immediately doubtful when I first learned of Wikipedia. I have stronger doubts about it now, after my experience. Better, I think, is to rely on peer-reviewed matter, such as Aroideana, for one's information about scientific topics. For non-scientific topics we are at the mercy of our own judgment, I suppose.   Ted. _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l --_535a5971-dc9a-48b5-82d1-7630b27b47a3_----==============P12705760842558967=

From: hermine <hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 2009.02.01 at 20:08:13(19022) At 08:19 AM 2/1/2009, you wrote: If you Google most species or''things'' you may need information on, a list of possibilites comes up,choose the best ones you can, avoidingWikipedia. maybe i told you maybe not, that i once went looking for information onwiki about Lorenzo da Ponte, the librettist for Mozart and everything Ifound there looked curiously familiar, because I HAD WRITTEN IT. However,in researching some hard science, i did find the footnotes and referencescheck out. I used to test dictionaries by looking up some obscure dog breed to seewhat they had to say, to see if it added to my own knowledge, and seldom,seldom, was this so. it would be hard to find more info in one place onAroids than I have found on this list. herm HTML +More --=====================_248834250==.ALT----==============‚65289379904381950=

From: hermine <hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 2009.02.01 at 20:09:59(19023) Kew Monocot Checklist. This site sometimes contains good info aboutwhy a plant is a synonym instead of the currently accepted name. C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Desktop\Kew World Monocots ChecklistSeries.mht HOW DO I GET HERE? hermine HTML +More --=====================_248940671==.ALT----==============t11001820680414371=

From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2009.02.03 at 12:48:20(19032) I copied the link directly from thewebpage but it won't come up alive when I try to paste it into anemail. I would just go to Google and type in Kew Monocot WorldChecklist and it will show up. Be sure and save the link to yourfavorites. In my case I have all of the ones I listed right on mydesktop with icons so I can just go to them quickly and click anyone soI can find info faster. I originally learned about the site from Lucinda Lay at Kew. Severalof the folks over there have been really kind to help me find info andI am always thankful for all their help. Kew has a number of goodsites so I use them often. Steve HTML +More hermine wrote: Kew Monocot Checklist. This site sometimes contains good info aboutwhy a plant is a synonym instead of the currently accepted name. C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Desktop\Kew World Monocots ChecklistSeries.mht HOW DO I GET HERE? hermine _______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l --------------080409010606010706040800

From: ExoticRainforest <Steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2009.02.03 at 12:56:50(19033) Interesting Hermine. Curiously I'mnow finding my own material on other websites (word for word) includingWiki! Although I do my best to make sure my info is accurate, how inthe world would anyone know it is accurate enough to just publish itword for word on an "Encyclopedia" website? Sites in SE Asia havebecome very bad about "borrowing" material from all sorts of sourcesand reusing it without credit in the origianl form! I've found quite afew of my pages reproduced intact minus the photos. And sometimes theyuse the photos as well! I created a moving banner of orchid photos formy orchid page (and I don't collect a lot of orchids) and found thething in full motion form on a SE Asian orchid site! You can screamand yell about copyright but with the internet many people will useanything they want and there is little you can do about it. What everhappened to civility and crediting others for what anyone uses as theirown work? Steve Lucas HTML +More www.ExoticRainforest.com hermine wrote: At 08:19 AM 2/1/2009, you wrote: If youGoogle most species or''things'' you may need information on, a list of possibilites comesup,choose the best ones you can, avoidingWikipedia. maybe i told you maybe not, that i once went looking for information onwiki about Lorenzo da Ponte, the librettist for Mozart and everything Ifound there looked curiously familiar, because I HAD WRITTEN IT.However,in researching some hard science, i did find the footnotes andreferencescheck out. I used to test dictionaries by looking up some obscure dog breed to seewhat they had to say, to see if it added to my own knowledge, andseldom,seldom, was this so. it would be hard to find more info in one place onAroids than I have found on this list. herm _______________________________________________Aroid-L mailing listAroid-L@www.gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l --------------070902020603040700050301

From: hermine <hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 2009.02.03 at 21:41:19(19037) You can scream and yell aboutcopyright but with the internet many people will use anything they wantand there is little you can do about it. What ever happened tocivility and crediting others for what anyone uses as their ownwork? Steve Lucas HTML +More I just dunno bout dis. I know we refer people to OTHER websites onour website, if those folks have better or more ideal pictures, andsometimes this means sending them to another SELLER'S website. ... as anarteeeeste, i am far to vain to EVER steal the work, the creative work ofanother, it is a mark of horrible weakness and a confession that one is aperson of little worth! it is EGO DRIVEN, has nothing to do with honestyper se, HOWEVER, after the ego is satisfied, the honesty thing would kickin followed by guilt for England, so there is no way I could do that! Just about the only thing worse than being quoted is being misquoted.between the two, a person could lose all their hair. I still say thecombo of pix, and info on this list has bypassed the race for top sourceof Aroid information in my previous pre-list life. I literally cannotBELIEVE the quality of the photos I see here. and I used to considermyself a photographer. I am having a rare humble moment. I am alsoliving in a temporary aroid deprived condition, and only recently got areal warm enough greenhouse to house them. it took me 12 years toacknowledge our "WINTER". i kept thinking it wassome kind of aberration. As for Wiki, i just came back from researching the alleged Naziaffiliations of a whole bunch of musicians, and found much ado aboutNOTHING. However it is useful to look up stuff like what was Bruce Springsteendoing in 1977. the footnotes may tell the story, however. Roger tells me Wiki just did a fund raiser and got six millionfranklins. I want my share for the Da Ponte biography. hermine --=====================_427220187==.ALT----==============Q31215332925811124=

From: "mossytrail" <mossytrail at hctc.com> on 2009.02.03 at 23:14:12(19038) If you have access to a university computer system, they may be subscribed to JSTOR, Biological Abstracts, or some similar database. These will take you to peer-reviewed articles. JSTOR is especially useful, because every article it references is scanned in its entirety in the database -- you can read it righ on your monitor. Of course, this necessitates that something BE published on the taxon in question. For some obscure taxa, there is nothing out there. Another drawback to JSTOR is that is you search the full-text of the articles, you may get articles in which your search term appears only in the "works cited," as part of the title of another article you probably already read. +More Jason Hernandez Naturalist-at-Large > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:37:45 -0800 (PST) > From: "E.Vincent Morano" > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia`s falsehoods > To: Discussion of aroids > Message-ID: <547443.98273.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > any idea's on where to find an unbiased source? > > --- On Sat, 1/31/09, ju-bo@msn.com wrote: _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2009.02.04 at 11:01:17(19047) Dear All, Between what Steve Lucas has suggested, then the great information which Jason provides (below), I THINK we have covered about as many bases we can concerning locating good information on aroids (and eliminating using Wikipedia).  Jason does bring up a good point--- where do we find information on some of the more obscure genera on which there are limited or NO publications!?!   Allow me to say that this forum (aroid-l) then provides an INVALUABLE service, as it has contact with MOST of the world experts on aroids or has a member who reads this forum, who can usually contact the person who has the knowledg.  Most times when a request has been submitted, there has been SOMEONE who reads the request and is able to eventually supply the information being sought! The Best, and Good Growing. Julius Boos WPB, FLORIDA > From: mossytrail@hctc.com HTML +More > To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com > Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:14:12 -0800 > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia`s falsehoods > > If you have access to a university computer system, they may > be subscribed to JSTOR, Biological Abstracts, or some > similar database. These will take you to peer-reviewed > articles. JSTOR is especially useful, because every article > it references is scanned in its entirety in the database -- > you can read it righ on your monitor. > > Of course, this necessitates that something BE published on > the taxon in question. For some obscure taxa, there is > nothing out there. Another drawback to JSTOR is that is you > search the full-text of the articles, you may get articles > in which your search term appears only in the "works cited," > as part of the title of another article you probably already > read. > > Jason Hernandez > Naturalist-at-Large > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:37:45 -0800 (PST) > > From: "E.Vincent Morano" <ironious2@yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Wikipedia`s falsehoods > > To: Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com> > > Message-ID: <547443.98273.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > any idea's on where to find an unbiased source? > > > > --- On Sat, 1/31/09, ju-bo@msn.com <ju-bo@msn.com> wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > Aroid-L mailing list > Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com > http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l --_ce26164b-4ef8-4db0-a7ee-759e3855cb53_----==============B61370617506130804=

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