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 This is a continuously updated archive of the Aroid-L mailing list in a forum format - not an actual Forum. If you want to post, you will still need to register for the Aroid-L mailing list and send your postings by e-mail for moderation in the normal way.

  Off-topic info on P. warmingii
From: EGoldfluss at aol.com (EGoldfluss at aol.com) on 2008.08.13 at 07:42:17(18372)
Sorry to start a new string-
I just bought a Philodendron warmingii on Ebay. The only place I have ever
seen or read about this Philo is Exotica. Any information would be
appreciated.
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From: "ExoticRainforest" <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2008.08.14 at 17:18:57(18376)
There is no such official botanical name as "Philodendron warmingii" listed on TROPICOS or the International Plant Names Index. You should be aware both Tropica and Exotica by A. B. Graf have many names that are not scientifically accepted. Tropica was never intended to be science, instead Mr. Graf started out to just bring the world of rare plant species to collectors.

Within Mr. Graf's texts there are numerous names that have no basis in science, someone simply made them up to sound scientific. Some of those names contain the last name of a collector with a double i at the end and are not scientific at all. Ever hear of "Philodendron wilsonii"? That name was apparently invented in jest by Bob Wilson in Miami when he owned Fantastic Gardens. The true species is Philodendron subincisum but everyone in Miami knows the plant as "Philodendron wilsonii". One of the garden editors of the Miami Herald asked me several years ago why she couldn't find that name in any scientific text.

Many of the names Graf chose to use never had any standing in science and were never published in any scientific journal! As a result of Mr. Graf, I personally spent two years chasing "Philodendron mandaianum" and could never figure out why the name wasn't in a scientific text. Mr. Graf was not a botanist, he was a plant collector who did a good thing by introducing many of us to unusual species. But his books are known to be filled with errors and Dr. Croat has pointed that out to us many times.

I always suggest any collector use the International Aroid Society website http://www.aroid.org/ TROPICOS http://www.tropicos.org/ or the International Plant Names Index http://www.ipni.org/index.html to verify if a name is scientific. If you don't find the spelling just do a search using the genus name and an entire list of species will pop up on TROPICOS. Sometimes you figure out you just have a bad spelling but all too often you'll learn the name (especially from eBay) just doesn't exist in science.

Steve Lucas

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From: EGoldfluss at aol.com on 2008.08.15 at 07:34:17(18379)
Sorry- Let's start again-

I purchased an interesting Philodendron, one I had not seen before, on Ebay. The seller called it Philodendron warmingii. I checked Tropicos and didn't see a P. warmingii listed. I pulled out the copy of Exotica which I have had since the early 1970s and the plant looks closest to the plant Graf calls P warmingii. Does anyone know what that may be and if so where I may find literature on it ?

And while I'm asking, Graf has a picture of a Philodendron he calls martianum which looks nothing at all like P. cannifolium. My P. martianum (cannifolium) looks just like his photo of P. cannifolium I saw a piece of this Philodendron once at either the Brooklyn or the NY Bot. many years ago. It was growing in the succulent house and the leaf blades were red, thick and leathery and about 6 inches long. I've been looking for that one for 30 years. Anyone know what that might be?

In defense of Mr. Graf, he was in large part dependent on information obtained from the N.J. growers like Roehrs, Manda and others, whose greenhouses were established in the 1800s. NJ was the major port of entry for the tons of newly discovered plants arriving annually in the U.S. from Africa, Asia and South America as Florida was still a swamp. The stuff came in so fast that you could barely describe it (or photograph) it fast enough. The book is full of errors, as were the collections and herbariums of most botanical gardens of the times, but its also full of photographs of interesting Aroids many of which I have an interest in attempting to grow whatever their proper scientific name. W.A. Manda's greenhouses were full of misnamed plants but I miss Bob and his son Alan (the last of the Manda's), their beat up copy of Exotica and the plants they grew as they gave me an interest which I have enjoyed my entire life.

Ed

Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

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From: "Carol McCarthy" <Carol.McCarthy at mail.wvu.edu> on 2008.08.15 at 12:12:05(18381)
I always suggest any collector use the International Aroid Society website http://www.aroid.org/ TROPICOS http://www.tropicos.org/ or the International Plant Names Index http://www.ipni.org/index.html to verify if a name is scientific. If you don't find the spelling just do a search using the genus name and an entire list of species will pop up on TROPICOS. Sometimes you figure out you just have a bad spelling but all too often you'll learn the name (especially from eBay) just doesn't exist in science.

Steve Lucas
www.ExoticRainforest.com

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From: brian lee <lbmkjm at yahoo.com> on 2008.08.15 at 19:11:09(18382)
Dear Ed,

Aloha.

My Exotica is in deep storage could you or someone in virtual world send a photo of the Philodendron illustrated as P. warmingii?

Thank you and aloha,

Leland

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From: "criswick" <criswick at spiceisle.com> on 2008.08.16 at 12:17:32(18385)
(!FILE)
Dear Leland,

Here is the Exotica picture.

John.

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From: "ExoticRainforest" <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2008.08.16 at 14:03:40(18387)
Hi Carol. Names rarely change despite what is written on many garden websites. What happens is a knowledgeable botanist doing research learns that the name currently being used is not the correctly accepted name and verifies the true name, which was the first name published to science that is correct to genus.

But collectors don't always like to accept botanical science. Collectors appear to prefer a different name for anything that does not look alike. Despite beliefs posted on the internet that botanists are perpetually toying with names and are "constantly changing" those names, the scientific fact is botanists are simply following the rules of botany as outlined by Linnaeus and no one has changed anything! These botanical scientists are simply following those rules as defined for centuries in an effort to get back to the first species name published that is correct to the genus.

Here's a great example. Collectors want to put a different tag on many of their collectable Philodendron species if they look even slightly different. But in fact Philodendron acrocardium, Philodendron cuspidatum, Philodendron hoffmannii, Philodendron microphyllum, Philodendron pittier, Philodendron micans, Philodendron oxycardium, and Philodendron scandens are all the same species: Philodendron hederaceum! Just because the blades have a slightly different appearance does not make them different species. The arguement about those names now dates back over 180 years and botanists decided way back then the correct name for all of them was Philodendron hederaceum. But collectors just won't allow those names to go away and continue to claim they are all different species.

That's why it is important to use a site like TROPICOS and once you find your name check to see if it is the "accepted name". You'll find that right up in the header. Then look to see if there are synonyms. Sometimes you'll find you have a species that has several natural variations and also several names.

It may be confusing, but it worth knowing what you are really growing.

Steve Lucas

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From: hermine <hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 2008.08.16 at 19:17:07(18389)
At 05:17 AM 8/16/2008, you wrote:

Dear Leland,

Here isthe Exotica picture.

John.

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From: egoldfluss at aol.com on 2008.08.16 at 19:17:51(18390)
I'm sorry but I have to reply to this-Your first statement is absolutely incorrect.
Names change all the time depending on whether the lumpers or splitters are in control at the moment. Names also change when the most recent oldest reference is found to be more recent than a previously unknown older reference. For many years I had an extremely large collection of ferns. I could not change the labels fast enough as the lumpers and splitters feuded.

To state that Botanists are only following the rules of Linnaeus is to ignore that a botanist like any other human being has an ego and in some cases that ego has caused divisions in plant groups where none actually exists.

But what do I know I'm only a collector-

Ed

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From: "ExoticRainforest" <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2008.08.16 at 20:46:44(18393)
Can you give us a photo? I no longer have a copy of Tropica.

Steve Lucas

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From: brian lee <lbmkjm at yahoo.com> on 2008.08.16 at 21:01:05(18395)
Dear John,

Aloha and mahalo for sending the picture.

First of all, it is my understanding that Philodendron cannifolium is a synonym for Philodendron martianum.

I have seen many Philodendron martianum. Most of them are rather broad bladed, but I have seen them with narrower blades and intermediates. In my mind, they are all Philodendron martianum. I have seen these in coastal restingas in Sao Paulo state and Rio de Janeiro state. They normally are found in forests with small trees growing as epiphytes in bright light...often rather low to the ground. Bactris palms a are common feature of these forest types.

Last year I saw two very narrow bladed Philodendron martianum and I asked about them...it turned out that they originally came from me. This clone was probably a juvenile in my collection, but I never segregated it out as different. I am now growing this out to see what the mature form looks like.

Your photo from Exotica looks like a narrow bladed form of Philodendron martianum. I can find no scientific references to Philodendron warmingii.

Now. Many of my plants were gifts ex. Roberto Burle-Marx's greenhouses and some of my plants have hybrid traits...until they flower and I can really compare some of these details...this is my best assessment. I have a Philodendron that looks like Philodendron martianum but has back lobes on the blades. Is this a species? I cannot say. Roberto had natural pollinators and several hybrids in his collections probably were due to recruitment of seedlings in his greenhouses.

Aloha,

Leland

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From: "criswick" <criswick at spiceisle.com> on 2008.08.17 at 12:20:22(18399)
Dear Ed,

Itwas so refreshing to read your words in defense of Graf and it’s good toknow that I have a kindred spirit out there.

I think too many of ushave over reacted to the fact that Graf’s Exotica and Tropica are full ofwhat we now know to be inaccuracies regarding nomenclature.

Theproblem is that Graf’s books were regarded as THE authority by manycollectors. But in those days, where else could you go for information ineasily accessible form? Now there have been huge advances in sorting thingsout, thanks to hard-working and dedicated people like Tom Croat.

Thisreaction against Graf reached its worst manifestation in the throwing or givingaway of his books ! These books always were and still are a usefullead in tracking down a plant. As a collection of photographs they are stillunrivalled, aren’t they?

Thebest thing you wrote Ed is that you want to grow some of these plants whatevertheir name !

Ihave a 19th century book on “stove” plants, with engravingsas illustrations. Because some of the names are no longer valid, should Ithrow away the book?

John.

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From: hermine <hermine at endangeredspecies.com> on 2008.08.17 at 16:17:57(18401)
I have a19th century book on ?stove? plants, with engravings asillustrations. Because some of the names are no longer valid,should I throw away the book?

John.

(hermine proffers her trash can)

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From: "criswick" <criswick at spiceisle.com> on 2008.08.18 at 11:05:44(18404)
Your kindnessoverwhelms me Hermine.

From:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of hermine
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 200812:18 PM
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Off-topicinfo on P. warmingii

I have a 19thcentury book on stove plants, with engravings as illustrations. Because some of the names are no longer valid, should I throw away the book?

John.

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From: "ExoticRainforest" <Steve at ExoticRainforest.com> on 2008.08.18 at 12:51:12(18406)
It appears some were offended by my pointing out Mr. Graf had errors in his books. Please note the things I said in the original post that I have now underlined in red. I still have a very old copy of his book but I don't trust the names due to the known errors.

My goal in researching my plants is botanical accuracy but if any of you are happy to use the names in Mr. Graf's texts, please feel free to do so. Hpwever, everytime I point out these errors some try to take what I say as an insult to Mr. Graf and that I am recommending his books be trashed. As I said in my post, HE DID A GOOD THING. I don't believe I recommended anyone to throw away your copy. I am quite amazed that the current publishing company that reissues his books makes no effort to correct or at least put a note with the errors.

Steve Lucas

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