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 This is a continuously updated archive of the Aroid-L mailing list in a forum format - not an actual Forum. If you want to post, you will still need to register for the Aroid-L mailing list and send your postings by e-mail for moderation in the normal way.

  Monstera question..
From: TheTropix at msn.com (Sherry Gates) on 2008.06.20 at 14:24:21(17874)
Hi everyone,
Is the M. deliciosa the large form and the M. pertusa the smaller form? I've seen both names used on both types, whether variegated or not. I've had a couple of people ask me the difference and after looking around, to try to make sure I have accurate information, I ended up uncertain myself. I have the green/white lg. leaf type, the green/yellow lg. leaf type, and the green/white smaller leaf type. Also, is there a variegation pattern of some sort that could help identify the difference between albo variegata Monstera from the 'Thai Constellation'?
Thanks for any information you can give,
Sherry
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From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.06.20 at 16:56:03(17876)
Dear Sherry,

Aloha.

I do not know much about Monstera species taxonomy...except that there are many species that are deserving of cultivation. I use Monstera deliciosa in copius amounts in landscaping. I know nothing of the variegated forms...although I do see many of them. Regarding Monstera pertusa, it is a valid name. I have seen so-called Dwarf Monstera and an intermediate sized Monstera species...but never in flower. There are some Raphidophora species that look like dwarf Monstera vegetatively. Hopefully someone out there can add to this discussion as I am very interested in this subject myself.

I used to correspond with Craig Phillips on Monstera before he passed away. Are there other Monstera enthusiasts out there? I am very interested in growing Monstera punctulata from Panama and Costa Rica. I do not know if others have this problem, but some Monstera are very difficult to root from cuttings. I suspect Monstera punctulata is one of these. Craig and I used to discuss this problem...they sit and dry or rot. This is highly unexpected when you see the vigorous plants...I have tried juvenile and mature stems at multiple times. I am not the best horticulturist, but I can slice and dice Monstera delisiosa in efforts at eradication and they root.

Aloha,

Leland

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From: abri1973 at wp.pl (Marek Argent) on 2008.06.20 at 20:44:54(17878)
Helo,

Monstera pertusa (propeerly M. adansonii) is a quite different species,
I think you writing about the smaller form of M. deliciosa you mean M. delicosa 'Borsigiana'
http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum/monstera/pertusa.htm
Don't be deceived by the filename, once I also thought that it was pertusa.

Marek Argent

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From: botanist at malesiana.com (Peter Boyce) on 2008.06.20 at 21:11:33(17879)
Hi Sherry,

If by the small form you mean the plant with long, almost trailing stems, with regularly spaced monstera-like leaves but with no perforatiions, then this is Rhaphidophora tetrasperma from West Malaysia.

Best
Peter

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From: mossytrail at hctc.com (mossytrail) on 2008.06.21 at 02:20:07(17884)
I do not
> know if others have this problem, but some Monstera are
> very difficult to root from cuttings. I suspect Monstera
> punctulata is one of these. Craig and I used to discuss
> this problem...they sit and dry or rot. This is highly
> unexpected when you see the vigorous plants...I have tried
> juvenile and mature stems at multiple times. I am not the
> best horticulturist, but I can slice and dice Monstera
> delisiosa in efforts at eradication and they root.
>
Well, that's encouraging. While I lived in Hawaii, I tried
taking a cutting of Monstera freidrichsthallii, and it just
withered away. It's nice to know that may not have been my
fault.

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From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.06.21 at 16:55:15(17890)
Dear Jason,

Aloha.

I have been hearing from other Monstera growers that they have this problem with certain species.

Monstera lechleriana is easy to root as a juvenile, but the mature stems can be temperamental. Some species are just stubborn...or it may be a timing thing...who knows?

Surf on to Tropicos type in Monstera and look at the species list. Then search the image file with only the genus...some very attractive species.

Aloha,

Leland

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From: Steve at ExoticRainforest.com (ExoticRainforest) on 2008.06.22 at 19:02:46(17903)
Sherry, this link contains info from Dr. Croat on Monstera adansonii which includes several synonym names. I hope this helps.

http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Monstera%20adansonii%20pc.html

Steve Lucas

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From: Steve at ExoticRainforest.com (ExoticRainforest) on 2008.06.22 at 19:05:58(17904)
And this one may help on Monstera deliciosa and the name pertusum. Part of this info was taken from the original issue of Aroideana and references are noted. For any of you that don't an entire set of Aroideana, contact Tricia Frank. One of the best investments you'll ever make.

http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Monstera%20deliciosa%20large%20pc.html

Steve Lucas

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From: gartenbaureisenberger at web.de (Helmut Reisenberger) on 2008.06.23 at 01:11:57(17908)
Dear Leland, Dear Steve, Dear all...

I have been always strongly interested in Monsteras, as I have got donations from various botanical collections in Europe.
Since a couple of years I never had problems in vegetative propagation of various species. I have learned from Steve, based on Dr. Croats valuable research work that different forms, like M.acuminata, M.friedrichsthalii, M.obliqua, in fact are only synonyms of M.adansonii. They vegetatively look much different in juvenile and adult stage, but I do have to accept, what the true experts say and what is based on extensive research work.
To my opinion there I do not see a difference between M.deliciosa and Monstera pertusa. If you have a juvenile M.deliciosa, it starts like M.pertusa and in the adult stage they look the same. Where is the difference?
My all time favourit, - and in Europe extremely sought after for its beauty, - is Monstera deliciosa variegata (alba). These I also successfully propagate through cuttings. But I am still looking for the golden (yellow) variegatred form, which sometimes had been offered in the USA but never in Europe.( Maybe somebody can help).
I once found a most beautiful pinnate leaved species climbing on a rock in the Botanical Garden of Darmstadt (Germany). I got a stem cutting and when I rooted it the juvenile leaves looked extremely strange for me until just recently I found the images of a herbaria species in tropicos. Now I know, it definetily is Monstera tenuis. It proofed to be a very invasive climber, but so far I have no adult leaf form yet.
I found a couple of Monstera lookalikes in different (very old) collections, - esp. in Eastern Europe. But since nobody coukld tell me about their origin, I have difficulties to identify them. I do not know if thay were Rahidophora, Amydrium, Epipremnum etc. But the first steps I have done, clearifying between Raphidophora decursiva, Raphidophora tetrasperma and Epipremnum pinnatum.
If anybody is interested I can send some images of my Monstera collection.

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From: Steve at ExoticRainforest.com (ExoticRainforest) on 2008.06.23 at 02:42:39(17910)
Helmet, great questions. If anyone has a good answer please post it! I am also very interested in this genus and have a fair number of species and often find them very confusing. As always, I want to hear from anyone with good info I can include on my pages and or to use as corrections! In fact, I was with Tom very briefly on Friday morning and had more questions but an unexpected "affliction" of food poisoning required us to come straight home. I will send him mail this week with more questions! And by the way, I was given a near fully adult specimen of Monstera adansonii over two years ago and it rooted immediately. No answers or speculation as to why. The thing has grown long vines that hang down almost two meters and I've given away multiple cuttings. Most of the original blades have dried in the past 6 months but new ones of equal size are now emerging.

Steve

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From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.06.23 at 05:31:11(17915)
Dear Helmut,

Aloha.

It is always good to maintain discussions about plants...more information is better than no exchange. I am very glad that Monstera and Schismatoglottis are getting some attention, because both genera have little known species that are extremely attractive and deserving of cultivation. Monstera is a difficult genus taxonomically...as are many of the genera that have juvenile forms and mature forms. Some Monstera take years to attain their mature morphologies...then their inflorescences should be examined and compared to the published descriptions....if they are readily available.

Please send your Monstera photos so the forum can discuss them. I am really interested to see your Monstera tenuis. I wish all on the forum could see Monstera punctulata in person...it is an awesome plant with very large dark green with a glaucous tint leaves, with many fenestrations, and much longer than broad blades. These leaves can be longer than 5 feet. This species has been impossible for me to root and I have tried. Perhaps MOBOT has this and I heard they may have it in San Francisco...but that was before the culling at the conservatory. The only caveat I can give is...do not count your chickens and do not damage the mother plants....until more are spread around.

Good to hear from another Monstera enthusiast...we will talk soon.

Aloha,

Leland

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From: abri1973 at wp.pl (Marek Argent) on 2008.06.23 at 16:04:06(17922)
Hi Helmuy,

M. pertusa is also a synonym of M. adansonii, it has holes only within
leaves, not cut out margins like M. deliciosa.

Best,
Marek

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From: Thomas.Croat at mobot.org (Tom Croat) on 2008.06.23 at 20:01:20(17923)
Dear Helmut:

Monstera acuminata is a distinct Central American species and M. oblique is a distinct species ranging from Central America to South America but M. friedrichstahalii is a synonym of M. adansonii. However, plants of mistaken determination labeled M. friedrichstalii were actually M. siltepecana. What was called Monstera pertusa for years is actually M. adansonii but if I am not mistaken the type of that plant is a Rhaphidophora from Asia. Monstera "pertusa" never had anything to do with M. deliciosa.

Tom

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From: TheTropix at msn.com (Sherry Gates) on 2008.06.24 at 02:30:03(17932)

Hi Marek and all the Folks on Aroid-l,
I think you are right about M. deliciosa 'Borsigiana'. I have the variegated form and have found that it grows at a reasonable quick rate. I would like thank everyone who gave me information! I do also have the Rhaphidophora tetrasperma, M. adansonii & a couple of others as well, so I'm pretty sure these aren't the same plant. The larger leaved variegated Monstera deliciosa is younger than the small leaved form, and I'm pretty sure they're not going to get any larger, at least nowhere near the size of the other. So many questions!
Thank you, and the other folks who spoke up, for helping me out on this.
Sherry
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From: gartenbaureisenberger at web.de (Helmut Reisenberger) on 2008.06.24 at 09:54:45(17938)
Dear Leland,

thank you for your contribution. This discussions encourages me to go deeper into that theme.
So far I have taken photos of my Monsteras , showing the growing habit, leaves, some inflorescenses - mainly of juvenile plants. Some of the images I am using for my commercial offers, where I still go back to common synonyms to distinguish the different leave forms and growing habits. But in the product description I tell my customers the taxonomical truth, which commonly is difficult to understand.
Back to the photos: In addition to the images I have available straight away, I will take more detailed pictures of my Monsteras in my collection, including some unidentified ones, where I not even do know if they are Monsteras, Amyridiums or Raphidophora. I think I will create a big discussion with some of my species and I am thankful in advance for any help to put my "desasterious collection" in the right light.
As I stated before, most of my aroids collection had been put together from donations (mainly cuttings) which I received from old samples displayed in various old botanical collection in Central Europe, while in most cases hardly anyone could tell me, where the plants originally had been collected.
So I think any ID work would be very very valuable for all.
At the same time, I want to tell the forum about the fact, that there are highly intersting botanical collections as well as a lot of interested enthusiasts in Central Europe. Anybody interested? Do not hesitate to contact me for details.

regards
Helmut

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From: chammer at cfl.rr.com (Bluesea) on 2008.06.24 at 16:07:04(17941)

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From: mossytrail at hctc.com (mossytrail) on 2008.06.25 at 00:36:37(17947)
>M. friedrichstahalii
> is a synonym of M. adansonii. However, plants of mistaken
> determination labeled M. friedrichstalii were actually M.
> siltepecana.

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From: hermine at endangeredspecies.com (hermine) on 2008.06.25 at 15:03:00(17956)
At 05:36 PM 6/24/2008, mossytrail wrote:
> >M. friedrichstahalii
> > is a synonym of M. adansonii. However, plants of mistaken
> > determination labeled M. friedrichstalii were actually M.
> > siltepecana.
>
>:Pulling out my hair: AAARRRRGGGHHH!!

Oh don't pull out your hair, shave your head instead. this goes on,
ON EVERY LIST of which I am a member, and for those of you who are on
MY lists, you know I speak the truth. Exept how I grew some hair recently.

hermine

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From: lbmkjm at yahoo.com (brian lee) on 2008.06.25 at 18:07:01(17962)
Dear Jason,

Aloha. My hair falls out naturally.

Monstera is a difficult group once you stray outside the few well known species. Discussion is healthy and I believe this thread will tease out some very useful information.

It is good to make mistakes...as long as we learn from them.

Aloha,

Leland

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From: TheTropix at msn.com (Sherry Gates) on 2008.06.26 at 00:44:28(17970)

Hi Russ & everybody,
Thank you, Russ, I was kind of wondering about that, lol. I had been asked if that was the variety I had, and I didn't know. I had seen the Thai Constellation on a website, and saw that, like you mentioned, it was more expensive with that name attached. Ha Ha!
Thanks again,
Sherry
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From: chammer at cfl.rr.com (Bluesea) on 2008.06.26 at 02:56:26(17971)
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From: Steve at ExoticRainforest.com (ExoticRainforest) on 2008.06.27 at 20:36:28(17985)
I can't locate the email where the question was asked if anyone can post a positive source that Monstera friendrichsthallii is actually a synonym of another Monstera species. Here's a great way for anyone to find out for themselves. You don't need to be a technical person or have any training in botany!

TROPICOS is a service of the Missouri Botanical Garden and of course our own Dr. Tom Croat is right at the source. I spent a few hours with Tom in his office last week and although I've used TROPICOS almost daily for years, Tom taught me a few new tricks I didn't know existed. But this one is quite easily used:

Click on TROPICOS http://www.tropicos.org/

Type in the name Monstera adansonii, and click it, a few options will pop up. Click on the first one.

When that page comes up, click on "synonyms" at the top of the page.

Run down the list. I believe you will find the answer as to what the names of the synonyms actually are will resolve without any doubt. The answer being sought is the third listing. If you prefer the International Plant Names Index (IPNI) you can find the same information.

Steve Lucas

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