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P. 'S. L, Dan and Ted--a reply!
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From: "Julius Boos" <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2007.02.24 at 14:48:49(15335)
Reply-To : Discussion of aroids
Sent : Friday, February 23, 2007 9:48 PM
To : "Discussion of aroids"
Subject : Re: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa Leopoldina'
Dear Dan (and Ted!),
In our narrow "focus" on this discussion, we have most certainly ommited a
most important point raised by Dan (below), that being the inspection of the
sexual parts of the blooms, and comparison to a 'true' specimen of P.
s.-sancti (available in the fantastic botanical illustrations of Dr.
Goncalves).
What I write is from memory, so PLEASE confirm by checking on Eduardo
Goncalves' article with GREAT photos and illustrations of ALL aspects being
discussed.
A couple of comments will clear this up.---
1) Dr. George Bunting, who originally described the species, did not have
a bloom (fertile material), so Dr. Goncalves had to wait till he could
obtain fertile material, and only THEN did he complete his fantastic work on
clarifying and doing a new description, photos, drawings and all, INCLUDING
delailed illustrations of the microscopic sexual parts which are imperative
in a FINAL determination. He also gave invaluable information on the
width-to-length ratio of the leaf blade, very few or maybe no other species
of Philodendron as an adult produces a leaf with a blade that is close to
this ratio.
Ted, to address a point you made, this species has been recognized for MANY
years as being 'special, and plants from the original area have been in
collections for a LONG time (60 years??). Bear in mind that these plants
are suspected of living for HUNDREDS of years!
The material used by Dr. Goncalves in his description is certainly of this
species.
The reports of the small number of these plants surviving in 'the wild' are
VERY accurate, as difficult as it is to even comprehend, ALMOST the entire
area of what USED to be jungle is now cow-pastures, a very small remnant of
patches small of jungle remain, and the land and these priceless patches
(and the remaining plants) are owned by a man (a friend of Dr. Goncalves)
who recognizes this unique plant.
Read Dr. Goncalves' description of the width-to-length ratio of the leaf,
look at the photos and drawings, and you will and can have NO doubt if you
have or do NOT have or are dealing with a legit. specimen of P. s. sancti.
2) This species seems to bloom only occasionally, so obtaining blooms for
comparison w/ Dr. Goncalves' illustrations is difficult!
There is a photo on Steve Lucas' web-page kindly supplied by Mic Pasqual of
Australia of a bloom produced by his plant which is purported to be this
species, unfortunately the lower part of the spathe was not cut away so as
to be able to see and examine the female parts, but the hope is that Eduardo
can at least give an opinion as to the plant`s determination based on the
spathe/bloom and the photos of the leaves.
3) I have never seen any blooms on any of the other Philodendrons sold as P.
"Santa Leopoldiana", but they are all FAST-growing, vineing species, none
have the width-to-length ratio of their respective leaf blades, so can not
be included as legit. P. s.-sancti.
As discussed (read Eduardo`s article) 'Santa Leopoldiana' does NOT seem to
be a legitimate name, so basically ANYONE can call ANY Philodendron P.
'Santa Leopoldiana" and do with it what they want, so "let the buyer
beware"!!
4) In closing, I urge all growers to obesrve their plants, and should a
bloom be produced, take GOOD photos of both leaves and blooms (after
carefully cutting away a portion of the lower spathe so as to be able to see
the female parts). If no fertilization is attained, please preserve the
entire bloom in 'rubbing alcohol', there are folks who would like to dissect
and examine these blooms.
Steve Lucas is doing a wonderful service and a fantastic job of compiling
information, correspondence and photos of these plants in an attempt to sort
this puzzle out. He is doing so amid some pretty 'rough' attacks, etc.
Please bear in mind that neither Steve or myself are trained Taxonomists,
the FINAL word will hopefully be forthcoming from the experts like Dr. Croat
and Dr. Goncalves in Brazil WHEN THEY HAVE THE TIME TO EXAMINE ALL THE
POSTED MATERIAL!! Keep up the good work Steve.
Good Growing,
Julius
| +More |
WPB,
FLORIDA
Well, I have been following this thread with some interest although I have
never grown a Philo. in my life. In spite of my monumental ignorance of
the genus I finally have gotten up the nerve to ask a completely silly
question. I have only heard people talking about the leaf of these
plants, the rate at which they grow, color of top and bottom of leaf, etc,
but surely a proper ID can not be made for this plant, or this genus I
would have thought, based on leaf form and color can it?? The pictures
being posted are incredibly beautiful and the difference between juvenile
and adult leaf forms is intrigueing, but truly points out the difficulty
of relying on these features for an ID. I have not read of anyone
describing the "naughty bits" as Wilbert refers to them for his favorite
genus. Does the Philo. world not rely upon the reproductive bits in the
influorescence for a proper ID?? If so, then it would seem that proper
IDs would be possible for anyone that has flowered their plant. Are these
almost impossible to flower thus adding to the difficulty?? Also, I would
assume that someone is doing the proper DNA work-up on these plants so
that a completely unequivocal ID can be had by anyone that wants to submit
and pay for genotyping, but perhaps not??
I apologize for the questions of an outsider in this rather exciting
conversation, but I hope that perhaps I can learn a little bit along the way
and perhaps someday I will even have a Philo. of my own....any old Philo.
Please be gentle in your responses :o)
Dan
Gibsonia, PA
zone 6a, where Spring is hopefully just around the corner :o)
----- Original Message -----
From: ted.held@us.henkel.com
To: Discussion of aroids
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:33 PM
Subject: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa Leopoldina'
All,
OK. So how reliable are the reports of the remaining P. spiritu-sancti
in the wild? What distinguishing marks should we be looking for? I have been
looking at the pictures in the postings and they vary quite a bit. How do I
know a real one when I see it? On what basis do the searchers in Brazil make
their determinations? Maybe the only plants left are examples of one or
another of the sham plants.
Ted.
_______________________________________________
Aroid-l mailing list
Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
|
|
From: <plantguy at zoominternet.net> on 2007.02.24 at 17:28:55(15339)
Dear Julius,
Thanks for the wonderful reply. As I said, I have no clue about this genera
and just hoped to learn a little along the way. I agree that the photos and
info that have been posted on Steve's site are a wonderful archive for all
that love these plants and even for someone like myself that is simply
curious about a plant of such importance in the botanical world!! I
sincerely hope that my naive questions were not construed as an "attack" as
that would be regrettable.
I look forward to other posts on this thread so that I may continue to
learn.
| +More |
Good growing all,
Dan
Gibsonia, PA
zone 6a and expecting an ice storm tonight....geesh!
----- Original Message -----
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] P. 'S. L, Dan and Ted--a reply!
Reply-To : Discussion of aroids
Sent : Friday, February 23, 2007 9:48 PM
To : "Discussion of aroids"
Subject : Re: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa Leopoldina'
Dear Dan (and Ted!),
In our narrow "focus" on this discussion, we have most certainly ommited a
most important point raised by Dan (below), that being the inspection of
the sexual parts of the blooms, and comparison to a 'true' specimen of P.
s.-sancti (available in the fantastic botanical illustrations of Dr.
Goncalves).
What I write is from memory, so PLEASE confirm by checking on Eduardo
Goncalves' article with GREAT photos and illustrations of ALL aspects
being discussed.
A couple of comments will clear this up.---
1) Dr. George Bunting, who originally described the species, did not
have a bloom (fertile material), so Dr. Goncalves had to wait till he
could obtain fertile material, and only THEN did he complete his fantastic
work on clarifying and doing a new description, photos, drawings and all,
INCLUDING delailed illustrations of the microscopic sexual parts which are
imperative in a FINAL determination. He also gave invaluable information
on the width-to-length ratio of the leaf blade, very few or maybe no other
species of Philodendron as an adult produces a leaf with a blade that is
close to this ratio.
Ted, to address a point you made, this species has been recognized for
MANY years as being 'special, and plants from the original area have been
in collections for a LONG time (60 years??). Bear in mind that these
plants are suspected of living for HUNDREDS of years!
The material used by Dr. Goncalves in his description is certainly of this
species.
The reports of the small number of these plants surviving in 'the wild'
are VERY accurate, as difficult as it is to even comprehend, ALMOST the
entire area of what USED to be jungle is now cow-pastures, a very small
remnant of patches small of jungle remain, and the land and these
priceless patches (and the remaining plants) are owned by a man (a friend
of Dr. Goncalves) who recognizes this unique plant.
Read Dr. Goncalves' description of the width-to-length ratio of the leaf,
look at the photos and drawings, and you will and can have NO doubt if you
have or do NOT have or are dealing with a legit. specimen of P. s. sancti.
2) This species seems to bloom only occasionally, so obtaining blooms for
comparison w/ Dr. Goncalves' illustrations is difficult!
There is a photo on Steve Lucas' web-page kindly supplied by Mic Pasqual
of Australia of a bloom produced by his plant which is purported to be
this species, unfortunately the lower part of the spathe was not cut away
so as to be able to see and examine the female parts, but the hope is that
Eduardo can at least give an opinion as to the plant`s determination based
on the spathe/bloom and the photos of the leaves.
3) I have never seen any blooms on any of the other Philodendrons sold as
P. "Santa Leopoldiana", but they are all FAST-growing, vineing species,
none have the width-to-length ratio of their respective leaf blades, so
can not be included as legit. P. s.-sancti.
As discussed (read Eduardo`s article) 'Santa Leopoldiana' does NOT seem to
be a legitimate name, so basically ANYONE can call ANY Philodendron P.
'Santa Leopoldiana" and do with it what they want, so "let the buyer
beware"!!
4) In closing, I urge all growers to obesrve their plants, and should a
bloom be produced, take GOOD photos of both leaves and blooms (after
carefully cutting away a portion of the lower spathe so as to be able to
see the female parts). If no fertilization is attained, please
preserve the entire bloom in 'rubbing alcohol', there are folks who would
like to dissect and examine these blooms.
Steve Lucas is doing a wonderful service and a fantastic job of compiling
information, correspondence and photos of these plants in an attempt to
sort this puzzle out. He is doing so amid some pretty 'rough' attacks,
etc. Please bear in mind that neither Steve or myself are trained
Taxonomists, the FINAL word will hopefully be forthcoming from the experts
like Dr. Croat and Dr. Goncalves in Brazil WHEN THEY HAVE THE TIME TO
EXAMINE ALL THE POSTED MATERIAL!! Keep up the good work Steve.
Good Growing,
Julius
WPB,
FLORIDA
Well, I have been following this thread with some interest although I
have never grown a Philo. in my life. In spite of my monumental
ignorance of the genus I finally have gotten up the nerve to ask a
completely silly question. I have only heard people talking about the
leaf of these plants, the rate at which they grow, color of top and
bottom of leaf, etc, but surely a proper ID can not be made for this
plant, or this genus I would have thought, based on leaf form and color
can it?? The pictures being posted are incredibly beautiful and the
difference between juvenile and adult leaf forms is intrigueing, but
truly points out the difficulty of relying on these features for an ID.
I have not read of anyone describing the "naughty bits" as Wilbert refers
to them for his favorite genus. Does the Philo. world not rely upon the
reproductive bits in the influorescence for a proper ID?? If so, then
it would seem that proper IDs would be possible for anyone that has
flowered their plant. Are these almost impossible to flower thus adding
to the difficulty?? Also, I would assume that someone is doing the
proper DNA work-up on these plants so that a completely unequivocal ID
can be had by anyone that wants to submit and pay for genotyping, but
perhaps not??
I apologize for the questions of an outsider in this rather exciting
conversation, but I hope that perhaps I can learn a little bit along the
way and perhaps someday I will even have a Philo. of my own....any old
Philo. Please be gentle in your responses :o)
Dan
Gibsonia, PA
zone 6a, where Spring is hopefully just around the corner :o)
----- Original Message -----
From: ted.held@us.henkel.com
To: Discussion of aroids
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:33 PM
Subject: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa Leopoldina'
All,
OK. So how reliable are the reports of the remaining P. spiritu-sancti
in the wild? What distinguishing marks should we be looking for? I have
been looking at the pictures in the postings and they vary quite a bit.
How do I know a real one when I see it? On what basis do the searchers in
Brazil make their determinations? Maybe the only plants left are examples
of one or another of the sham plants.
Ted.
_______________________________________________
Aroid-l mailing list
Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
_______________________________________________
Aroid-l mailing list
Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
|
|
From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" <steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2007.02.25 at 22:09:40(15353)
Thanks for the support Julius. I would like everyone to
keep in mind I don't consider any responses to be "attacks", although I
understand what Julius is trying to say. To the contrary, I started this
to try to find answers and that is still what I am attempting to do. I
would truly like to know what the other unidentified plants in this discussion
actually might be!
I have tried to include pertinent responses from all sides of
this question. Some feel other plants have as much right to use the name
Santa Leopoldina as does P. spritus-sancti. And perhaps they
do! I just am of the opinion that since P. spiritus-sancti is of
such importance, and is now so endangered, perhaps it has more of
an inherited right to the name. My responses from Brazilian Mauro
Piexoto would appear to indicate just that. Certainly, it appears to have
much greater right to the name than plants that don't even come from the region
where the town of that name is found is SE Brazil.
I am just very anxious for Eduardo and other qualified experts
to join the comments!
Steve Lucas
| +More |
http://www.exoticrainforest.com/what%20is%20it.html
----- Original Message -----
From:
Julius Boos
To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:48
AM
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] P. 'S. L, Dan and
Ted--a reply!
>From : Reply-To
: Discussion of aroids Sent :
Friday, February 23, 2007 9:48 PMTo : "Discussion of aroids" Subject
: Re: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa Leopoldina'Dear Dan (and
Ted!),In our narrow "focus" on this discussion, we have most certainly
ommited a most important point raised by Dan (below), that being the
inspection of the sexual parts of the blooms, and comparison to a 'true'
specimen of P. s.-sancti (available in the fantastic botanical
illustrations of Dr. Goncalves).What I write is from memory, so PLEASE
confirm by checking on Eduardo Goncalves' article with GREAT photos and
illustrations of ALL aspects being discussed.A couple of comments will
clear this up.---1) Dr. George Bunting, who originally
described the species, did not have a bloom (fertile material), so Dr.
Goncalves had to wait till he could obtain fertile material, and only THEN
did he complete his fantastic work on clarifying and doing a new
description, photos, drawings and all, INCLUDING delailed illustrations of
the microscopic sexual parts which are imperative in a FINAL
determination. He also gave invaluable information on the
width-to-length ratio of the leaf blade, very few or maybe no other
species of Philodendron as an adult produces a leaf with a blade that is
close to this ratio.Ted, to address a point you made, this species has
been recognized for MANY years as being 'special, and plants from the
original area have been in collections for a LONG time (60
years??). Bear in mind that these plants are suspected of
living for HUNDREDS of years!The material used by Dr. Goncalves in his
description is certainly of this species.The reports of the small
number of these plants surviving in 'the wild' are VERY accurate, as
difficult as it is to even comprehend, ALMOST the entire area of what USED
to be jungle is now cow-pastures, a very small remnant of patches small of
jungle remain, and the land and these priceless patches (and the remaining
plants) are owned by a man (a friend of Dr. Goncalves) who recognizes this
unique plant.Read Dr. Goncalves' description of the width-to-length ratio
of the leaf, look at the photos and drawings, and you will and can have NO
doubt if you have or do NOT have or are dealing with a legit. specimen of
P. s. sancti.2) This species seems to bloom only occasionally, so
obtaining blooms for comparison w/ Dr. Goncalves' illustrations is
difficult!There is a photo on Steve Lucas' web-page kindly supplied by Mic
Pasqual of Australia of a bloom produced by his plant which is purported
to be this species, unfortunately the lower part of the spathe was not cut
away so as to be able to see and examine the female parts, but the hope is
that Eduardo can at least give an opinion as to the plant`s determination
based on the spathe/bloom and the photos of the leaves.3) I have
never seen any blooms on any of the other Philodendrons sold as P. "Santa
Leopoldiana", but they are all FAST-growing, vineing species, none have
the width-to-length ratio of their respective leaf blades, so can not be
included as legit. P. s.-sancti.As discussed (read Eduardo`s article)
'Santa Leopoldiana' does NOT seem to be a legitimate name, so basically
ANYONE can call ANY Philodendron P. 'Santa Leopoldiana" and do with it
what they want, so "let the buyer beware"!!4) In closing, I urge
all growers to obesrve their plants, and should a bloom be produced, take
GOOD photos of both leaves and blooms (after carefully cutting away a
portion of the lower spathe so as to be able to see the female
parts). If no fertilization is attained, please
preserve the entire bloom in 'rubbing alcohol', there are folks who would
like to dissect and examine these blooms.Steve Lucas is doing a
wonderful service and a fantastic job of compiling information,
correspondence and photos of these plants in an attempt to sort this
puzzle out. He is doing so amid some pretty 'rough' attacks,
etc. Please bear in mind that neither Steve or myself are
trained Taxonomists, the FINAL word will hopefully be forthcoming from the
experts like Dr. Croat and Dr. Goncalves in Brazil WHEN THEY HAVE THE TIME
TO EXAMINE ALL THE POSTED MATERIAL!! Keep up the good work
Steve.Good
Growing,JuliusWPB,FLORIDA>>Well, I have been
following this thread with some interest although I have >>never
grown a Philo. in my life. In spite of my monumental ignorance of
>>the genus I finally have gotten up the nerve to ask a completely
silly >>question. I have only heard people talking about the
leaf of these >>plants, the rate at which they grow, color of top
and bottom of leaf, etc, >>but surely a proper ID can not be made
for this plant, or this genus I >>would have thought, based on leaf
form and color can it?? The pictures >>being posted are
incredibly beautiful and the difference between juvenile >>and adult
leaf forms is intrigueing, but truly points out the difficulty >>of
relying on these features for an ID. I have not read of anyone
>>describing the "naughty bits" as Wilbert refers to them for his
favorite >>genus. Does the Philo. world not rely upon the
reproductive bits in the >>influorescence for a proper
ID?? If so, then it would seem that proper >>IDs would
be possible for anyone that has flowered their plant. Are these
>>almost impossible to flower thus adding to the difficulty??
Also, I would >>assume that someone is doing the proper DNA work-up
on these plants so >>that a completely unequivocal ID can be had by
anyone that wants to submit >>and pay for genotyping, but perhaps
not??I apologize for the questions of an outsider in this rather
exciting conversation, but I hope that perhaps I can learn a little bit
along the way and perhaps someday I will even have a Philo. of my
own....any old Philo. Please be gentle in your responses
:o)DanGibsonia, PAzone 6a, where Spring is hopefully just
around the corner :o) ----- Original Message
----- From: ted.held@us.henkel.com
To: Discussion of aroids Sent: Thursday, February 22,
2007 2:33 PM Subject: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa
Leopoldina' All, OK.
So how reliable are the reports of the remaining P. spiritu-sancti in the
wild? What distinguishing marks should we be looking for? I have been
looking at the pictures in the postings and they vary quite a bit. How do
I know a real one when I see it? On what basis do the searchers in Brazil
make their determinations? Maybe the only plants left are examples of one
or another of the sham plants.
Ted._______________________________________________Aroid-l
mailing listAroid-l@gizmoworks.comhttp://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
_______________________________________________
Aroid-l mailing list
Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
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