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 This is a continuously updated archive of the Aroid-L mailing list in a forum format - not an actual Forum. If you want to post, you will still need to register for the Aroid-L mailing list and send your postings by e-mail for moderation in the normal way.

  Philodendron Help
From: "Michael Pascall" <mickpascall at hotmail.com> on 2007.01.01 at 10:48:16(15029)
Harry unk4 is a Syngonium .

Michael Pascall,

_________________________________________________________________

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From: "Harry Witmore" <harrywitmore at witmore.net> on 2007.01.01 at 13:00:32(15030)
I've had a suggestion that
http://www.cloudjungle.com/CloudJungle/Araceae/Philodendron/Philodendron_unk4.jpg

is Syngonium
macrophyllum. Looks correct to me but I would not have guessed
it.
http://www.aroid.info/gatunki/syngonium/syngonium_macrophylllum.html

Harry

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From: Bluesea <chammer at cfl.rr.com> on 2007.01.01 at 15:05:18(15031)
Hi Harry, Happy New Year.

These plants are familiar to me. I know the first photo as P.
anisotomum. I've also seen it sold as camposportoanum by someone on
Ebay. Can't miss those small, hooked top lobes.

The 2nd is not a Philo, it's Syngonium macrophyllum. The leaf shape
and satin-like surface is distinctive.

Of course both of your examples are in immature stage. There are photo
examples in Graf's Exotica, if you have one.

Russ

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From: "Tom Croat" <Thomas.Croat at mobot.org> on 2007.01.01 at 23:23:19(15032)
Dear Harry:

Both are Syngonium, most
likely S. chiapense. It is true that Syngonium macrophyllum has entire, ovate
blades when quite juvenile but those leaves are sort of subrounded. I am not
sure what the intermediate forms are but the adult blades are more like the
plant in the background of your image.

Tom

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From: RAYMOMATTLA at cs.com on 2007.01.03 at 01:47:14(15034)
Harry,
Is this from the collection at Atlanta Botanical Gardens because if it is, it is in fact S. chiapense. However, i have a smaller, thinner leaved form (that has grown like a weed all over my GH) that was labeled S. macrophyllum and looks alot like the plant pictured. It is similiar to S. chiapense but, like I said, thinner, smaller leaves. For some reason it never seems to want to get adult leaves so that i can correctly ID it.
Michael
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From: "Harry Witmore" <harrywitmore at witmore.net> on 2007.01.05 at 14:00:33(15039)
Well of course you saw Tom,s post which stated both were s
chiapense. Not sure bout that since they are no much alike. Russ said the satin
leaved on was S macrophyllum and well as someone else said this. I tend to
believe this because of the satin leaf surface. Russ said the other one was P.
anisotomum which he said is also known as camposportoanum. I had someone else id
it a P camposportoanum. So, the jury is still out. These dang things are so hard
to get names for. I want to get names on all my Monstera also and I know that is
not going to be easy since allot of them look alike. I saw a reference to what
folks call P Silver Queen as actually being Monstera dubia. I don't
believe this for a minute, I have it as M seltepecana ..

I really don't remember where these came from. They were
sort of lost in the greenhouse and I found them when I cleaned it out this past
summer.
Hope you are well and had a great Christmas and New
Year.
Harry Witmore

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From: "Harry Witmore" <harrywitmore at witmore.net> on 2007.01.05 at 17:12:42(15040)
The last post was not meant for the group but Michael
Mattlage. Therefore the reference to Monstera. Forgive me for not paying
attention.

Harry

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From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" <steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2007.01.05 at 23:30:02(15043)
There is obviously more than a bit of disagreement on what
"species" the plant known as the Silver Queen actually is. One well known
collector has brought this discrepancy to my attention once before and I began
at that time to try to find out which plant is which. I have found the
identical photo of the "Silver Queen" plant identified as both Monstera
dubia and Monstera siltepecana on different websites. The
photo of M. dubia on the IAS website appears to be at least
similar. My website is at least one of the sites that currently has the
"Silver Queen" noted as the juvenile form of M. dubia. I received
my identification from a well known collector. However, I have clearly
noted on that page as well as M. siltepecana, both are under some
scrutiny and review. I asked Dr. Croat some weeks ago for a clarification
but as yet have not received a positive response. I have seen the
plant "Silver Queen" offered for sale on eBay as M. dubia and
"Philodendron dubia" as well. Not being a botanist I attempt only to
report what I can verify to the best of my ability. The plant I have on my
site as M. siltepecana was identified for me about 10 months ago by an
associate at the Huntington. Unfortunately, I did not save the email
response so I can no longer verify who made that identification. I would,
as much as anyone, love to have an absolute identification on these
plants. I have it noted in several locations on the site I invite those
who are qualified to bring inaccurate identifications to my attention. My
personal goal is to be as accurate as possible since I am an admitted student of
botany. Unfortunately, as we all regularly experience, there are a lot of
opinions out there about the correct names for a variety of plants.

If anyone is absolutely positive about the correct ID I'd love
to hear the correct names.

Steve Lucas

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From: "Harry Witmore" <harrywitmore at witmore.net> on 2007.01.06 at 12:54:29(15047)
Steve, I totally agree with you. This plant seems to
defy identity. I had Rhaphidophora cryptantha labeled Monstera dubia for years
so I can surely be incorrect and am quite often. I have never seen the plant I
have labeled M siltepecana revert to any type of foliage other than what it has
now. I would assume that if it were M dubia it would in some situations revert
to the sprawling climber that shingles but I could be wrong.

What is the consensus on this plant if any from the
list.

Harry

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From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" <steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2007.01.06 at 17:48:33(15051)
Harry (and others who have sent email directly),

I received some nice photos from Brian Williams this morning
that appear to support the idea the 'Silver Queen' is the juvenile form of
M. dubia. Brian's photos show the plant progressing into the
adult stages. Since I can't get an absolute verification of that fact as
yet I'm hesitant to declare it so but more than one grower has indicated the
same idea to me. Of course, others differ strongly with that
opinion. The plant that was identified by the person at the Huntington as
M. siltepecana has begun to climb a nearby log and has only
recently begun to produce holes in the leaves. I don't consider it large
enough or the holes distinctive enough yet to photograph well but the leaves are
over 20cm at this point. I've had it in the ground for about 18 months and
have tried not to disturb it so the plant can develop as much as possible in my
artificial "rainforest".

Although I grow some plants in pots, I grow as many as
possible planted in the soil or attached to artificial logs. The soil in
our atrium was prepared to simulate rainforest conditions. I maintain
a steady temperature and extremely high humidity all the times. As a
result, many of my specimens have grown unusually large in a relatively
short period of time. As I've reported before, the A. regale has
a leave well over 70cm and is currently in bloom. I've only had the plant
15 months and it had no leaves when it arrived. Knowledgeable growers who
visit often comment they have not seen plants growing as large. I was
fortunate enough to have spent a fair amount of time in rainforests around the
world and set out to duplicate those conditions as closely as possible when I
built the atrium nearly 5 years ago.

Several others have indicated they believe I have my
identifications backwards on the M. dubia and M.
siltepecana plants and that is certainly possible. I just
attempt to post what I can verify from sources with more knowledge and
experience than I. I invite anyone to comment on anything I have posted on
the site and make suggestions or corrections. My only goal is to try to
get the information as accurate as possible. One thing I find most
enjoyable is when other knowledgeable growers volunteer good information attempt
to help each other with good information. So keep it
coming!

Steve Lucas

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From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" <steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2007.01.07 at 18:14:54(15056)
I just posted one of Brian's photos on my website which
appears to indicate "Silver Queen" is the juvenile form of M. dubia.
Anyone who wishes to see Brian's photo and comment is invited to do
so:

http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Monstera%20dubia%20pc.html

Steve Lucas

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From: RAYMOMATTLA at cs.com on 2007.01.07 at 18:37:06(15060)
But wouldnt M. dubia change to an all green color (w/o variegation) if it was in its in-between stage, as in in between juv. and adult? Ive grown "silver queen" up Greenhouse walls and it never seems to change much other than leaves getting a little larger. The pics Ive seen of M. dubia show it change from its shingling stage (with appressed, variegated leaves) to its adult forms fairly quickly with only a few of the "in-between stage" leaves. I can definately see how these can be confused though. Does anyone out there know what the juvenile form of M. siltepecana look like? I have 2 plants both labled M. siltepecana, both are very similar but one form is much lighter in variegation with almost light green markings instead of white. My Monstera dubia has almost rounded variegated leaves that are appressed.
Very interesting conversation, at least for me. Harry is right, some of these Monsteras are hard to get names on, especially since alot of us dont have the room to grow them to mature size.
Michael
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From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" <steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2007.01.08 at 00:01:59(15061)
Just traded brief emails with Dr. Croat. Hopefully we
can get his input on these plants.

Steve Lucas

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From: Scherberich <aroids at numericable.fr> on 2007.01.08 at 00:18:24(15062)
Dear Michael,According to Michael Madison's revision of Monstera, Monstera siltepecana has exserted and erect juvenile leaves, it is closer to Monstera adansonii than Monstera dubia. If your plants is shingling then it is not M. siltepecana.With best regards,DavidLe 7 janv. 07 à 19:37, RAYMOMATTLA@cs.com a écrit : But wouldnt M. dubia change to an all green color (w/o variegation) if it was in its in-between stage, as in in between juv. and adult? Ive grown "silver queen" up Greenhouse walls and it never seems to change much other than leaves getting a little larger. The pics Ive seen of M. dubia show it change from its shingling stage (with appressed, variegated leaves) to its adult forms fairly quickly with only a few of the "in-between stage" leaves. I can definately see how these can be confused though. Does anyone out there know what the juvenile form of M. siltepecana look like? I have 2 plants both labled M. siltepecana, both are very similar but one form
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From: "Tom Croat" <Thomas.Croat at mobot.org> on 2007.01.08 at 00:30:22(15063)
Steve:

It surely is a Monstera but I
am not at all sure that it is M. dubia. In its most juvenile stages that
species is a shingle plant with grayish mottling.

tom

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From: "Harry Witmore" <harrywitmore at witmore.net> on 2007.01.08 at 01:01:54(15065)
I'm not convinced. I have been growing this plant for 4
years and have never seen it shingle at all. This is a very interesting
discussion and I will look forward to new info on this. I have also recently
redone the greenhouse and I'm growing most all species in the ground in a loose
mix and minimum 65f. So we shall see. Thanks Steve for the info and Brian for
the pictures.

Harry

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From: "Tom Croat" <Thomas.Croat at mobot.org> on 2007.01.09 at 00:30:23(15068)
Dear Steve and others:

Yes, Monstera dubia definitely
changes from its shingled, mottled juvenile forms to the preadult, solid green
leaves and never reverts back. Monstera dubia is also charateristically very
warty on the adult stems.

Tom

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From: "Steve Lucas Exotic Rainforest" <steve at exoticrainforest.com> on 2007.01.09 at 04:07:24(15070)
Thanks again Tom. Several of us have been having
independent discussions regarding the species that were a part of this
discussion. I believe I can say we all appeciate your help in
understanding these species better.

Steve

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