News from what remains of the Jungle

From: Floral Artistry jjingram at pacbell.net> on 2001.05.18 at 16:16:39(6520) Ron, I think you have lost part of the equation here. Millions of plants are gone because people have become indignant and will not allow material to be wild collected. Millions of acres are slashed and burned every hour. You should read into this "burned" as being completely unavailable to anyone but God. There is no way we can bring this material back. The Brazilian government has adapted a red line law that is emphatic about wild material. They can not get it through their thick heads about the fact that it is their own ignorance that is destroying these plants. They need to adapt a collection and preserve mentality to at least remove plants after the trees have been slashed and move the material to growing facilities and grown on and when strong enough, sell to the world market. I'm not talking "white gringo greed" here. I'm talking practical solutions to save the very same plants you would like to have. And, just for your info, if it were not for greedy collectors in the early part of last century, Your garden would be a very boring thing. You would have none of the foods you enjoy, none of the trees you enjoy and none of the medications you so seem to think are the result of greed. Many of these medications have saved millions of lives a year. I do not agree with the way they are marketed and marked up unnecessarily but the fact remains that we have them. +More "I am beginning to wonder if I should ask expert native > BOTANISTS to collect and supply tiny samples for this Ark at FULL PRICE and when I visit their Countries to do so to observe, support THEM and help WITHOUT collecting. " There are very few expert native botanists. They just don't exist. I'm not being condescending. I'm being realistic. And another realistic note, in the countries we are speaking of (Brazil in particular) the masses of poor you so wish to save are as ignorant about the value of the plants I wish to acquire as they are about what fair market value is. Their economy is so out of whack that fair value/legalities/decent living is very confusing. And just FYI, it is very easy to get legal material out of Brazil. I do it every month. And each plant shipment is government documented, inspected, and approved. There is protocol and that must be followed. I have been lucky to find several friends in Brazil who are as concerned about the native plants to be sensible to cultivate and export. All the plants that I have received are from cultivated material produced from years of growing from either seeds, cuttings, or division. I am in the process of setting up a growing area/production facility in Brazil to produce mass quantities of native flora, everything from Aroids, bulbs, flowering trees, and palms to gingers and heliconias. It is merely a matter of time to get the monies together. The Brazilian permits are all lined up and ready to go. This would not only sustain Brazilian natives (if only in the cultivated sense because their "natives" will destroy the wild forms) but also educate the employees as well as supply them will decent housing and income. John Ingram

From: "Eduardo Goncalves" edggon at hotmail.com> on 2001.05.20 at 03:21:48(6525) Dear Jon, Let me add a few comments on your message. In fact, there are many native botanists in South America, some of them, top notch experts. Unfortunately, only a few of them are able to publish regularly in English. It is not so surprise. If the scientific language still was the Latin, how many Anglo-saxonic scientists will be silent for the rest of the world? German scientists discovering many interesting things in the beginning of the century and north American are discovering this things again, like it was the first time! Another important thing is that the `publication` culture is not so important here, i.e., it wasn?t so important. Anyway, based on the lack of priority of the government, we are too many! Yes, we are not so scientific but things are changing. Take a look at the recent literature. South Americans, Hindus and Chinese are everywhere, from Botany to Physics. In the last International Aroid Conference, there was many Colombians, Brazilians and other non-English-speakers, all with very interesting posters and/or conferences. I know we are not enough (considering the complexity of our biomes), but we are trying to be at the party too. In the last two Aroideanas, there was many articles from Brazilians. Just like India, there are two worlds together here in Brazil. We have good scientific institutions, with a very competent staff... And we have the extreme poverty. It is hard to understand, but these worlds speak the same language! And some of us (like me) are even studying aroids! Best wishes, Eduardo. +More >There are very few expert native botanists. They just don't exist. I'm not >being condescending. I'm being realistic. And another realistic note, in >the >countries we are speaking of (Brazil in particular) the masses of poor you >so wish to save are as ignorant about the value of the plants I wish to >acquire as they are about what fair market value is. Their economy is so >out >of whack that fair value/legalities/decent living is very confusing. > >And just FYI, it is very easy to get legal material out of Brazil. I do it >every month. And each plant shipment is government documented, inspected, >and approved. There is protocol and that must be followed. I have been >lucky >to find several friends in Brazil who are as concerned about the native >plants to be sensible to cultivate and export. All the plants that I have >received are from cultivated material produced from years of growing from >either seeds, cuttings, or division. I am in the process of setting up a >growing area/production facility in Brazil to produce mass quantities of >native flora, everything from Aroids, bulbs, flowering trees, and palms to >gingers and heliconias. It is merely a matter of time to get the monies >together. The Brazilian permits are all lined up and ready to go. This >would >not only sustain Brazilian natives (if only in the cultivated sense because >their "natives" will destroy the wild forms) but also educate the employees >as well as supply them will decent housing and income. > >John Ingram > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

From: Paul Tyerman ptyerman at ozemail.com.au> on 2001.05.20 at 03:53:07(6527) > I am in the process of setting up a >growing area/production facility in Brazil to produce mass quantities of >native flora, everything from Aroids, bulbs, flowering trees, and palms to >gingers and heliconias. It is merely a matter of time to get the monies >together. The Brazilian permits are all lined up and ready to go. This would >not only sustain Brazilian natives (if only in the cultivated sense because >their "natives" will destroy the wild forms) but also educate the employees >as well as supply them will decent housing and income. > John, Hopefully that will show others that it CAN be done and might show some of the slashers that they can earn an income from saving what they would normally burn, for only the cost of collecting the material and selling it to the concerns such as yours. If that cycle could be started then there is hope for many of the species that are being wiped out at such a rate. Maybe then the one or two individuals of plants thought to be extinct that are unknowingly still growing in the trees or ground destined for decimation and crops will have a future that involves life rather than death. I hope it all goes well for you. May just be the chance for a lot of species, as well as some necessary income for some of the poor farmers. Cheers. Paul Tyerman +More Canberra, Australia. USDA equivalent - Zone 8 mailto:ptyerman@ozemail.com.au Growing.... Galanthus, Erythroniums, Fritillarias, Lilium, Aroids, Irises plus just about anything else that doesn't move!!!!!

From: Betsy Feuerstein ecuador at midsouth.rr.com> on 2001.05.20 at 03:53:21(6528) Yes, both can happen. We can get the plants we so love, and the little guy can collect from to be destroyed or altered terrain and all can be better off in the deal. And yes, you are right, the governments cannot comprehend that they themselves are the biggest culprits in the destruction of their own ecology. No one wants to take responsibility and all want to blame. While I want the forest to stay and be for the future, if that is not to happen, let's find ways like this to make as much of the plant material to be saved and propagated and released. That is the costly end. When money passes hands for the product which it is at that point, those down the line in both directions are supported with what they need and want. The growers are financially supported, the collectors are supported, the plant collectors either commercial or hobby are getting what they want. Why is this so difficult to be understood? Perhaps it is that very few truly know the massive destruction of the areas in question and that authority has ideas of survival that do not foster preservation and sustanence. Reality check, what is, is and we best come to grips quick or in the end, the land is worthless, the little guy moves on to start yet again and more is destroyed. Learn to see the asset in the forest itself and this can have a light at the end of the tunnel, all be it small at this time. Good luck with your venture. I wish you well. Keep your botanical data to make the botanists happy if at all possible. (Are you from Brazil? or just a dedicated lover of plants settled on the plantdom of Brazil?) Betsy +More Floral Artistry wrote: > Ron, > I think you have lost part of the equation here. Millions of plants are gone > because people have become indignant and will not allow material to be wild > collected. Millions of acres are slashed and burned every hour. You should > read into this "burned" as being completely unavailable to anyone but God. > There is no way we can bring this material back. The Brazilian government > has adapted a red line law that is emphatic about wild material. They can > not get it through their thick heads about the fact that it is their own > ignorance that is destroying these plants. > They need to adapt a collection and preserve mentality to at least remove > plants after the trees have been slashed and move the material to growing > facilities and grown on and when strong enough, sell to the world market. > I'm not talking "white gringo greed" here. I'm talking practical solutions > to save the very same plants you would like to have. > And, just for your info, if it were not for greedy collectors in the early > part of last century, Your garden would be a very boring thing. You would > have none of the foods you enjoy, none of the trees you enjoy and none of > the medications you so seem to think are the result of greed. Many of these > medications have saved millions of lives a year. I do not agree with the way > they are marketed and marked up unnecessarily but the fact remains that we > have them. > "I am beginning to wonder if I should ask expert native > > BOTANISTS to collect and supply tiny samples for this Ark at FULL PRICE > and > when I visit their Countries to do so to observe, support THEM and help > WITHOUT collecting. " > > There are very few expert native botanists. They just don't exist. I'm not > being condescending. I'm being realistic. And another realistic note, in the > countries we are speaking of (Brazil in particular) the masses of poor you > so wish to save are as ignorant about the value of the plants I wish to > acquire as they are about what fair market value is. Their economy is so out > of whack that fair value/legalities/decent living is very confusing. > > And just FYI, it is very easy to get legal material out of Brazil. I do it > every month. And each plant shipment is government documented, inspected, > and approved. There is protocol and that must be followed. I have been lucky > to find several friends in Brazil who are as concerned about the native > plants to be sensible to cultivate and export. All the plants that I have > received are from cultivated material produced from years of growing from > either seeds, cuttings, or division. I am in the process of setting up a > growing area/production facility in Brazil to produce mass quantities of > native flora, everything from Aroids, bulbs, flowering trees, and palms to > gingers and heliconias. It is merely a matter of time to get the monies > together. The Brazilian permits are all lined up and ready to go. This would > not only sustain Brazilian natives (if only in the cultivated sense because > their "natives" will destroy the wild forms) but also educate the employees > as well as supply them will decent housing and income. > > John Ingram

From: "Ron Iles" roniles at eircom.net> on 2001.06.13 at 15:00:10(6696) John! I will precis everything you kindly said with all the to represent about Jungle problems and SOLUTIONS in 23(2) or 23(3). Can you briefly add more? We need an article which suggests all the different channels to attack to get the most positive ACTION to halt destruction. Cheers Ron +More ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list AROID-L" Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 5:17 PM Subject: RE: News from what remains of the Jungle | | Ron, | I think you have lost part of the equation here. Millions of plants are gone | because people have become indignant and will not allow material to be wild | collected. Millions of acres are slashed and burned every hour. You should | read into this "burned" as being completely unavailable to anyone but God. | There is no way we can bring this material back. The Brazilian government | has adapted a red line law that is emphatic about wild material. They can | not get it through their thick heads about the fact that it is their own | ignorance that is destroying these plants. | They need to adapt a collection and preserve mentality to at least remove | plants after the trees have been slashed and move the material to growing | facilities and grown on and when strong enough, sell to the world market. | I'm not talking "white gringo greed" here. I'm talking practical solutions | to save the very same plants you would like to have. | And, just for your info, if it were not for greedy collectors in the early | part of last century, Your garden would be a very boring thing. You would | have none of the foods you enjoy, none of the trees you enjoy and none of | the medications you so seem to think are the result of greed. Many of these | medications have saved millions of lives a year. I do not agree with the way | they are marketed and marked up unnecessarily but the fact remains that we | have them. | "I am beginning to wonder if I should ask expert native | > BOTANISTS to collect and supply tiny samples for this Ark at FULL PRICE | and | when I visit their Countries to do so to observe, support THEM and help | WITHOUT collecting. " | | There are very few expert native botanists. They just don't exist. I'm not | being condescending. I'm being realistic. And another realistic note, in the | countries we are speaking of (Brazil in particular) the masses of poor you | so wish to save are as ignorant about the value of the plants I wish to | acquire as they are about what fair market value is. Their economy is so out | of whack that fair value/legalities/decent living is very confusing. | | And just FYI, it is very easy to get legal material out of Brazil. I do it | every month. And each plant shipment is government documented, inspected, | and approved. There is protocol and that must be followed. I have been lucky | to find several friends in Brazil who are as concerned about the native | plants to be sensible to cultivate and export. All the plants that I have | received are from cultivated material produced from years of growing from | either seeds, cuttings, or division. I am in the process of setting up a | growing area/production facility in Brazil to produce mass quantities of | native flora, everything from Aroids, bulbs, flowering trees, and palms to | gingers and heliconias. It is merely a matter of time to get the monies | together. The Brazilian permits are all lined up and ready to go. This would | not only sustain Brazilian natives (if only in the cultivated sense because | their "natives" will destroy the wild forms) but also educate the employees | as well as supply them will decent housing and income. | | John Ingram | |

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