IAS on Facebook
IAS on Instagram
|
![](/images/navbartop.jpg)
IAS Aroid Quasi Forum
About Aroid-L
This is a continuously updated archive of the Aroid-L mailing list in a forum format - not an actual Forum. If you want to post, you will still need to register for the Aroid-L mailing list and send your postings by e-mail for moderation in the normal way.
Philodendron selloum
|
From: dave-poole at ilsham.demon.co.uk on 1999.01.28 at 17:14:30(2960)
I'm curious to hear of any successes with this species as a permanent
garden plant in 'cool' areas ie. USDA Zones 9 or above. Having gone
through a winter here in England, where even Taro (Colocasia
esculenta) has not died down and is now starting to produce new
leaves, I'm very tempted to try this in a sheltered corner. I
understand the leaves are often killed by frost, but the 'trunk' can
and does survive down to around 27F or even lower.
I appreciate it probably needs good, hot humid conditions in order to
make up in summer, but my little patch (a very sheltered, south
facing, walled garden in the far south-west) is invariably very warm
and humid throughout the spring, summer and autumn months. Daytime
highs of the mid to upper 80's and night-time lows in the upper 60's
are not at all uncommon even during a comparatively cool summer.
Gardenia jasminoides 'Florida', 'Butterfly gingers' (Hedychiums
coronarium & gardnerianum) and even Christmas (Bracket) Cactus
(Schlumbergera) flourish and flower without any problems
David Poole
| +More |
TORQUAY UK
USDA Zone 9b
|
|
From: Steve & Missy Kennedy <stevemissy at mindspring.com> on 1999.02.01 at 16:53:23(2981)
I don't know how it will do in cool summer situations. As I live in the USA
Zone 7b on the east coast where we have hot and humid summers, but cold
winters. It is reliably root hardy here ( 0F ). I have for the past two
years tried to save the trunk with protection with good success. How ever
we have had mild winters the past two winters with the lows only in the
teens. I hope this helps you.
- Steve
| +More |
Steve Kennedy
Angier,NC
zone 7b
At 11:13 AM 1/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I'm curious to hear of any successes with this species as a permanent
>garden plant in 'cool' areas ie. USDA Zones 9 or above. Having gone
>through a winter here in England, where even Taro (Colocasia
>esculenta) has not died down and is now starting to produce new
>leaves, I'm very tempted to try this in a sheltered corner. I
>understand the leaves are often killed by frost, but the 'trunk' can
>and does survive down to around 27F or even lower.
>
>I appreciate it probably needs good, hot humid conditions in order to
>make up in summer, but my little patch (a very sheltered, south
>facing, walled garden in the far south-west) is invariably very warm
>and humid throughout the spring, summer and autumn months. Daytime
>highs of the mid to upper 80's and night-time lows in the upper 60's
>are not at all uncommon even during a comparatively cool summer.
>Gardenia jasminoides 'Florida', 'Butterfly gingers' (Hedychiums
>coronarium & gardnerianum) and even Christmas (Bracket) Cactus
>(Schlumbergera) flourish and flower without any problems
>
>David Poole
>TORQUAY UK
>USDA Zone 9b
>
>
|
|
From: "Mr R.a McClure" <Rob.McClure at sci.monash.edu.au> on 1999.02.03 at 04:17:23(2995)
> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:17:02 -0600
> From: dave-poole@ilsham.demon.co.uk
> Subject: Philodendron selloum
| +More |
> To: rob.mcclure@sci.monash.edu.au
> Reply-to: aroid-l@mobot.org
> I'm curious to hear of any successes with this species as a permanent
> garden plant in 'cool' areas ie. USDA Zones 9 or above. Having gone
> through a winter here in England, where even Taro (Colocasia
> esculenta) has not died down and is now starting to produce new
> leaves, I'm very tempted to try this in a sheltered corner. I
> understand the leaves are often killed by frost, but the 'trunk' can
> and does survive down to around 27F or even lower.
>
> I appreciate it probably needs good, hot humid conditions in order to
> make up in summer, but my little patch (a very sheltered, south
> facing, walled garden in the far south-west) is invariably very warm
> and humid throughout the spring, summer and autumn months. Daytime
> highs of the mid to upper 80's and night-time lows in the upper 60's
> are not at all uncommon even during a comparatively cool summer.
> Gardenia jasminoides 'Florida', 'Butterfly gingers' (Hedychiums
> coronarium & gardnerianum) and even Christmas (Bracket) Cactus
> (Schlumbergera) flourish and flower without any problems
>
Hi David,
Fuss not over your P. selloum .
I am in zone 9 /10 in Australia with usually cool, wet winters and
very hot, dry summers .
I have two large selloums outside my office here and they grow like
weeds. They face north which means full sun in this hemisphere,
(very hot and bone dry in summer) they never get any watering other
than rain and I am constantly trimming them back so I can get the car
down the driveway.
They flower and fruit regularly and provide a terrific launching
pad for the possums that thump all over the roof when I am working
back late at night ! Your squirrels will learn fast !
I am surprised at how tough these plants are as they are growing in
the most un-philodendron like place.
Your conditions sound like philo-paradise in comparison.
Be warned though, if they like the spot they grow quite large.
Cheers,
Rob.
Rob.McClure
Biological Sciences
Monash University, Clayton 3168
Victoria
AUSTRALIA.
Phone:(03)9905.5625
Fax:(03)9905.5613
e-mail: Rob.McClure@sci.monash.edu.au
|
|
From: "Petra Schmidt" petra at plantdelights.com> on 2001.12.11 at 15:35:02(7877)
Philodendron selloum (now bipinnatifidum) has been in the hort trade for
ages...can anyone tell me who supplied the first introductions or where
(plant source) it originated?
Also, has anyone overwintered it successfully in zones colder than Zone 7b?
Has anyone tried?
| +More |
Petra
|
|
From: Iza & Carol Goroff goroff at idcnet.com> on 2001.12.11 at 20:10:26(7880)
I can't answer any of Petra's questions, but the mention of the plant gives me
an opportunity to tell of my oldest aroid. I acquired my plant around 1971. It
has lived in five different places since, the current location its first
greenhouse. It has a stem 20" (50 cm) tall and eleven leaves, each leaf blade
about 26" (65 cm) long. Its stem would be much longer except for rotting in the
middle on two previous occasions. Although that mecessitated repotting, there
was no slowdown in growth since most of its functioning roots were from above
the rotted section, many of them circling its pot on the floor. It has bloomed
on a few occasions, though not recently. It lives in a 20 gallon terra cotta
pot with the bulk of its roots on the greenhouse tile floor.
Iza Goroff
| +More |
Whitewater Wisconsin USA zone 4b - no chance of any Philodendron surviving
winter outside here.
Petra Schmidt wrote:
> Philodendron selloum (now bipinnatifidum) has been in the hort trade for
> ages
|
|
From: "brian williams" pugturd50 at hotmail.com> on 2001.12.11 at 21:15:51(7885)
Hello Petra. I had an offset of philo selloum survive a few years back. It
was an extremely mild winter. But it did lose all its leafs and struggled to
come back.
| +More |
Have you looked into getting some non aroids? These have large leafs and
actually can look very tropical. There are a few other things. One day I
will have a list of all my plants and there names and photos on a site. I am
slowly working on it.
Petasites
ligularia
gunnera
rheum
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
|
|
From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at email.msn.com> on 2001.12.11 at 23:47:10(7886)
Dear Petra,
Can you get or do you have Mayo`s 'A Revision of Philodendron subgenus
Meconostigma (Araceae)', Kew Bullitin Vol. 46 ( I have a copy) and his 1990
'History and infragenitic nomenclature of Philodendron (Araceae) Kew Bull.
45 ( 1 ): 37-71 ( I do NOT have a copy of this!)? Though he does not give
precise dates in his 'revision' paper (it seems that the 1990 paper has more
detaile on the introduction dates) , there is enough recorded to know that
this species (there is still confusion over exactly how many 'good' species
there are in the complex, some w/ green spathes, others w/ maroon spathe
exteriors) was in Europe in the early 1800`s, Schott brought back specimens
for cultivation to Vienna (Mayo notes that the name had been validly
published in 1837), and must have spread to the Americas sometime after
that.
An interesting observation I have made is that in pre-tissue culture days,
several ( ? ) years ago, this plant used to be grown in commercial
quantities here in WPB from seed obtained by hand-pollination. The plants
thus produced showed quite a wide range of leaf form, differently colored
petioles/veins and overall form/shape, all of which were 'lost' once they
began to produce them by using just one 'donner' mother plant in tissue
culture.
In the collection of Jim Enck, a long-time member of the IAS here in WPB,
Joep Moonen, (who visited Jim with me a couple/three years ago), was amazed
and thrilled to see some of the OLD selections of this now VERY common but
'all the same' plant that Jim had obtained 'way back when' from commercially
available plants grown from seed! A couple were FAR superior to the one
'clone' now being produced in mass.
Cheers,
Julius
| +More |
>>Philodendron selloum (now bipinnatifidum) has been in the hort trade for
ages...can anyone tell me who supplied the first introductions or where
(plant source) it originated?
Also, has anyone overwintered it successfully in zones colder than Zone 7b?
Has anyone tried?
Petra<<
|
|
From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at email.msn.com> on 2001.12.12 at 00:52:30(7889)
Dear Iza,
Thanks for the story of this old plant!
here in Florida, this species grows QUICKLY to a gigantic size, and under
the right conditions, planted in good soil next to a palm tree, can be seen
with an erect rhizome standing against the palm tree trunk, which it
'embraces' with it`s cable-like roots, to a height of over 15 ft., and a
leaf spread of 7-8 ft. If it does not have a tree trunk to support it`s
upward growth, it seems 'happy' to grow along the ground, it`s 'head' held
vertically, thill the rhizome can be 10 or many more feet long, and about 8"
in dia. It can get this large in 10 -15 years.
Good growing!
Julius
| +More |
>>I can't answer any of Petra's questions, but the mention of the plant
gives me
an opportunity to tell of my oldest aroid. I acquired my plant around 1971.
It
has lived in five different places since, the current location its first
greenhouse. It has a stem 20" (50 cm) tall and eleven leaves, each leaf
blade
about 26" (65 cm) long. Its stem would be much longer except for rotting in
the
middle on two previous occasions. Although that mecessitated repotting,
there
was no slowdown in growth since most of its functioning roots were from
above
the rotted section, many of them circling its pot on the floor. It has
bloomed
on a few occasions, though not recently. It lives in a 20 gallon terra cotta
pot with the bulk of its roots on the greenhouse tile floor.
Iza Goroff
Whitewater Wisconsin USA zone 4b - no chance of any Philodendron surviving
winter outside here.
Petra Schmidt wrote:
> Philodendron selloum (now bipinnatifidum) has been in the hort trade for
> ages
|
|
From: "Clarence Hammer" chammer at cfl.rr.com> on 2001.12.12 at 20:01:07(7895)
Ref Petra's comments. P. selloum is now bipinnatifidum? I'm not aware of
this, all my information indicates they have been and are 2 distinct
species. Anyone?
| +More |
I doubt if selloum could survive 7B or further north without extraordinary
measures. Perhaps massive mulching of the root zone, some of the cold
protective 'fleeces' and other materials could save a portion of the bottom
of the plant to come back the following year. All bets would be off with
exceptionally severe winters.
Russ.
|
|
From: Neil Carroll zzamia at hargray.com> on 2001.12.12 at 23:04:17(7897)
Russ, Petra's pretty knowledgable on this stuff. The following is
paraphrased from Aroids by Deni Bown:
some confusion has existed in the past over P. selloum and P.
bipinnatifidum....Engler considered them seperate species. the two names
have in the past been used to differentiate two different populations
(Gottsberger and Amaral 1984) and In 1991 Mayo joined the two into one
single species ....P. bippinatifidum is the true name....P. selloum has been
reduced into synonomy.
Neil
| +More |
-----Original Message-----
To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L
Date: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: Philodendron selloum
> Ref Petra's comments. P. selloum is now bipinnatifidum? I'm not aware of
>this, all my information indicates they have been and are 2 distinct
>species. Anyone?
>
>I doubt if selloum could survive 7B or further north without extraordinary
>measures. Perhaps massive mulching of the root zone, some of the cold
>protective 'fleeces' and other materials could save a portion of the bottom
>of the plant to come back the following year. All bets would be off with
>exceptionally severe winters.
>
>Russ.
>
|
|
From: StellrJ at aol.com on 2001.12.13 at 15:44:52(7900)
In a message dated Tue, 11 Dec 2001 4:16:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, "brian williams" writes:
>
I am
> slowly working on it.
| +More |
> Petasites
> ligularia
> gunnera
> rheum
>
But isn't Gunnera also tropical? Those others should work, though; Petasites is native along the US Pacific Coast, Rheum (i.e., rhubarb) is from the Himalayas.
|
|
From: SelbyHort at aol.com on 2001.12.13 at 15:46:12(7906)
To add to Neil's comments below and Julius' earlier about older collections
of this species in Florida, some older FL hort books and trade publications
listed both P. selloum and P. bipinnatifidum as distinct species. About 20-30
years ago in the FL nursery trade sometimes the names were used almost in a
varietal or even cultivar sense. During those years in the hort trade, the P.
bipinnatifidum "form" was considered superior and more sought after. I seem
to recall from my retail nursery days in the early-mid 1980s that any plant
labeled with the name P. bipinnatifidum sold for a higher price than those
labeled as P. selloum. Probably some unscrupulous nursery owners capitalized
on this and labeled all their seedling plants with this name to garner a few
more dollars, other growers actually produced cuttings taken from some select
forms and gave them the P. bipinnatifidum name to distinguish them. The
latter were far less common in cultivation and quite rightly fetched the
highest price. Occasionally some newspaper or magazine article would
elaborate on these plants and discuss the various points of difference
between the two "forms" in cultivation. Afterwards customers would come in
asking for P. bipinnatifidum and would turn up their noses at any plant
labeled with the P. selloum name as a "common" seedling of unknown parentage,
and less desirable, thus we always tried to keep a small supply of plants,
acquired from trusted wholesale sources as cutting-grown P. bipinnatifidum,
for our more "discriminating" buyers! In the back nursery area we kept some
stock plants of a few superior P. bipinnatifidum forms to propagate for
special customers, because we could not always find a wholesale source for
the "true" P. bipinnatifidum grown only from cuttings. Later, this P.
bipinnatifidum name became lost in the trade and all you could find were the
uniform plants labeled as P. selloum. I guess it simply became uneconomical
for wholesale growers to produce cuttings of those special forms, so one
could no longer find all the variations of this species in nurseries.
Donna Atwood
| +More |
<< some confusion has existed in the past over P. selloum and P.
bipinnatifidum....Engler considered them separate species. the two names
have in the past been used to differentiate two different populations
(Gottsberger and Amaral 1984) and In 1991 Mayo joined the two into one
single species ....P. bippinatifidum is the true name....P. selloum has been
reduced into synonomy.
>>
|
|
From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at email.msn.com> on 2001.12.14 at 02:21:18(7908)
Dear Petra, Donna and Friends,
In the interest of clarity, I will just give a LITTLE more information taken
from Simon Mayo`s EXCELLENT paper, "A revision of Philodendron subgenus
Meconostigma (Araceae)', published in the Kew Bullitin Vol. 46 ( 4 ), and
then give my OPINION (and as we all know, opinions are like noses, EVERYONE
has one :--)> ).
Dr. Mayo takes great pains to point out that this is a very confused taxon,
occuring in a WIDE area of distribution, and may consist of several species,
some as yet undescribed. The two main ones in question are P.
bipinnatifidium Schott 1832, and P. selloum C. Koch1853 or 1854, (some
confusion here).
Dr. Mayo writes as follows---'P. bipinnatifidium, as circumscribed here is a
very variable taxon in morphology and color of leaf and inflorescence. The
main unifying character is the bipinnatifid leaf blade'---he goes on to
state--'Like other authors who have studied this species complex in the
recent past'---'I have taken a broad view of the species. This seems to be
the only practical way of dealing with taxanomic difficulties for which
current knowledge does not provide satisfactory soloutions'. He goes on to
explain that the original dsecription was by Schott ---(plant probably
collected from near Rio de Janero) and that Schott`s manuscript description
of 1884 show that his plant had a spathe tube colored purple-brown
externally, a gynoceum with a well developed central style dome and the
female zone adnate to the spathe for about half it`s length.
P. selloum was described by C. Koch (to cut a long story short, it was from
cultivated material in Berlin sent to Koch by his friend H. Sello, head
gradener at Sans Souci, the Imperial Prussian estate at Potsdam, and Koch
did not see fertile material). Dr. Mayo notes that the confusion between
these two names may have it`s origin in the professional rivalry between
Schott and Koch. Schott left illustrations in his Icones Aroideae of his
P. bipinatifidium and P. selloum, and his illus. of P. selloum showed a
spathe colored green externally, a pistil with a deep style funnel and NO
central dome , and the female zone of the spadix adnate to the spathe for
OVER half its length. Engler (1878: 170), who studied Schott`s
illustrations, distinguished P. selloum by its green spathe tube longer than
the spathe blade, and the entirely adnate female zone. This work by Engler
is probably the 'why' of the two names, and when Mayo wrote this paper I am
quoting from is when people began considering that the two species were
synonomyous.
Now for MY opinion ( which is like a nose, etc. etc. etc.). Based on what
I have just detailed, I concur with Dr. Mayo that MUCH more study needs to
be done with this complex before I can say with certainity whether there are
two or even more species involved in this group of broadly distributed
plants, BUT based on the features of spathe color (exterior and interior),
size of the respective inflorescences, and especially the seemingly major
differences in the structure of the female flowers and the length that the
female portion of the spadix that is adnate to the spathe, that there
probably are at LEAST two species involved here, so as it stands now P.
bipinnatifidum and P. selloum can be distinguished one from the other, and
in my opinion may eventually be 'ruled' to be two 'good' and different
species.
The plants that I have studied here in Florida all have an all-green spathe
exterior, I have not as yet sen a plant with a purple-brown spathehe
exterior (I THINK someone told me there were plants w/ red-brown spathes in
collections??).
Another 'species' that has been placed into synonomy with P. bipinnatifidium
by in Dr Mayo`s in paper is
P. pygmaeum Chodat & Vischer 1880 from Paraguay, I THINK I`ve seen a plant
of this VERY distinctive small Philodendron, (any of you who were in Miami
last Sept. may have seen me on Sat. morning wandering around with a leaf of
this plant in my hand). There is a paper in which there must be a
discussion on this plant, it is by Dr. Croat and D. Mount. I`d like to
read the section about it, if anyone has a copy please contact me, it
is--'Croat, T. B. & Mount, D. (1988) The monocotyledons- A Comparative
Study. 378 pp., Acadamia Press, London.'
This is a MOST interesting discussion, and Donna`s information given below
gives me ammunition to go ask my old buddy Jim about! He will remember the
names and ways these plants used to be sold in the 'good old days'.
ENOUGH!
Good growing,
Julius Boos
| +More |
WPB,
Florida
ju-bo@msn.com
To add to Neil's comments below and Julius' earlier about older collections
of this species in Florida, some older FL hort books and trade publications
listed both P. selloum and P. bipinnatifidum as distinct species. About
20-30
years ago in the FL nursery trade sometimes the names were used almost in a
varietal or even cultivar sense. During those years in the hort trade, the
P.
bipinnatifidum "form" was considered superior and more sought after. I seem
to recall from my retail nursery days in the early-mid 1980s that any plant
labeled with the name P. bipinnatifidum sold for a higher price than those
labeled as P. selloum. Probably some unscrupulous nursery owners capitalized
on this and labeled all their seedling plants with this name to garner a few
more dollars, other growers actually produced cuttings taken from some
select
forms and gave them the P. bipinnatifidum name to distinguish them. The
latter were far less common in cultivation and quite rightly fetched the
highest price. Occasionally some newspaper or magazine article would
elaborate on these plants and discuss the various points of difference
between the two "forms" in cultivation. Afterwards customers would come in
asking for P. bipinnatifidum and would turn up their noses at any plant
labeled with the P. selloum name as a "common" seedling of unknown
parentage,
and less desirable, thus we always tried to keep a small supply of plants,
acquired from trusted wholesale sources as cutting-grown P. bipinnatifidum,
for our more "discriminating" buyers! In the back nursery area we kept some
stock plants of a few superior P. bipinnatifidum forms to propagate for
special customers, because we could not always find a wholesale source for
the "true" P. bipinnatifidum grown only from cuttings. Later, this P.
bipinnatifidum name became lost in the trade and all you could find were the
uniform plants labeled as P. selloum. I guess it simply became uneconomical
for wholesale growers to produce cuttings of those special forms, so one
could no longer find all the variations of this species in nurseries.
Donna Atwood<<
<< some confusion has existed in the past over P. selloum and P.
bipinnatifidum....Engler considered them separate species. the two names
have in the past been used to differentiate two different populations
(Gottsberger and Amaral 1984) and In 1991 Mayo joined the two into one
single species ....P. bippinatifidum is the true name....P. selloum has
been
reduced into synonomy.
>>
|
|
From: "brian williams" pugturd50 at hotmail.com> on 2001.12.14 at 05:24:42(7909)
Dear Julius and others. I thought it maybe interesting to know that ALVIM
SEIDEL the nursery in Brazil. Has Philo selloum seeds for sell. Not only one
form but all these forms.
selloum 9.00
| +More |
selloum var compactum 20.00
selloum var Sao Paulo 12.00
Selloum var Urugay 12.00
also
bipinnatifidum 8.00
As from reading other e-mails it would be nice to see what a lot of the
seedlings would come out to look like.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
|
|
From: "Clarence Hammer" chammer at cfl.rr.com> on 2001.12.14 at 05:26:24(7911)
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion. Very
interesting, and enlightening. I did not
know that selloum/bipinnatifidum were considered the same in any circles,
but being 'at large' for my entire
'Aroid life', information has always been hard to come by.
Does the selloum variety 'Uruguay' still exist somewhere? My old Exotica
references a 'German Selloum'
from German seed considered a more graceful form, finely cut and wavy leaf
segments.
| +More |
What about bipinnatifidum 'Seaside'? or lundii 'Sao Paulo'? Still in
cultivation?
Petra, where in zone 7B are you with the winter hardy selloum? Are you
protecting in any way?
Russ.
|
|
From: Neil Crafter golfstra at senet.com.au> on 2001.12.14 at 05:57:07(7912)
Julius
I think Simon also reduced P.mello-barretoanum to synonomy under
P.bipinnatifidum. Having only seen photos of this plant I must admit to being a
little shocked with this as the leaf form seems substantially different. Have
you seen this plant in the flesh?
here in Australia all these plants are lumped in as P.selloum but I think they
are not all tissue cultured plants as you can still find some with variety in
leaf forms. I have a nice one growing here that is more pinnatifidum than
"bi"pinnatifidum, as the leaves are cut once but only the merest hint of twice.
Still clearly a Meconostigma plant nevertheless.
I have just selfed my large bipinnatifiduma nd have quite a few seedlings
growing now and I'll be interested to see what variety the seedlings show in
leaf form.
Also I have never seen a red spathed form out here, or anywhere for that matter.
Green rules!
So much work to be done by someone and so little time!
cheers
Neil
| +More |
Neil Crafter
Adelaide Australia
Julius Boos wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: Philodendron selloum
>
> Dear Petra, Donna and Friends,
>
> In the interest of clarity, I will just give a LITTLE more information taken
> from Simon Mayo`s EXCELLENT paper, "A revision of Philodendron subgenus
> Meconostigma (Araceae)', published in the Kew Bullitin Vol. 46 ( 4 ), and
> then give my OPINION (and as we all know, opinions are like noses, EVERYONE
> has one :--)> ).
> Dr. Mayo takes great pains to point out that this is a very confused taxon,
> occuring in a WIDE area of distribution, and may consist of several species,
> some as yet undescribed. The two main ones in question are P.
> bipinnatifidium Schott 1832, and P. selloum C. Koch1853 or 1854, (some
> confusion here).
> Dr. Mayo writes as follows---'P. bipinnatifidium, as circumscribed here is a
> very variable taxon in morphology and color of leaf and inflorescence. The
> main unifying character is the bipinnatifid leaf blade'---he goes on to
> state--'Like other authors who have studied this species complex in the
> recent past'---'I have taken a broad view of the species. This seems to be
> the only practical way of dealing with taxanomic difficulties for which
> current knowledge does not provide satisfactory soloutions'. He goes on to
> explain that the original dsecription was by Schott ---(plant probably
> collected from near Rio de Janero) and that Schott`s manuscript description
> of 1884 show that his plant had a spathe tube colored purple-brown
> externally, a gynoceum with a well developed central style dome and the
> female zone adnate to the spathe for about half it`s length.
> P. selloum was described by C. Koch (to cut a long story short, it was from
> cultivated material in Berlin sent to Koch by his friend H. Sello, head
> gradener at Sans Souci, the Imperial Prussian estate at Potsdam, and Koch
> did not see fertile material). Dr. Mayo notes that the confusion between
> these two names may have it`s origin in the professional rivalry between
> Schott and Koch. Schott left illustrations in his Icones Aroideae of his
> P. bipinatifidium and P. selloum, and his illus. of P. selloum showed a
> spathe colored green externally, a pistil with a deep style funnel and NO
> central dome , and the female zone of the spadix adnate to the spathe for
> OVER half its length. Engler (1878: 170), who studied Schott`s
> illustrations, distinguished P. selloum by its green spathe tube longer than
> the spathe blade, and the entirely adnate female zone. This work by Engler
> is probably the 'why' of the two names, and when Mayo wrote this paper I am
> quoting from is when people began considering that the two species were
> synonomyous.
> Now for MY opinion ( which is like a nose, etc. etc. etc.). Based on what
> I have just detailed, I concur with Dr. Mayo that MUCH more study needs to
> be done with this complex before I can say with certainity whether there are
> two or even more species involved in this group of broadly distributed
> plants, BUT based on the features of spathe color (exterior and interior),
> size of the respective inflorescences, and especially the seemingly major
> differences in the structure of the female flowers and the length that the
> female portion of the spadix that is adnate to the spathe, that there
> probably are at LEAST two species involved here, so as it stands now P.
> bipinnatifidum and P. selloum can be distinguished one from the other, and
> in my opinion may eventually be 'ruled' to be two 'good' and different
> species.
> The plants that I have studied here in Florida all have an all-green spathe
> exterior, I have not as yet sen a plant with a purple-brown spathehe
> exterior (I THINK someone told me there were plants w/ red-brown spathes in
> collections??).
> Another 'species' that has been placed into synonomy with P. bipinnatifidium
> by in Dr Mayo`s in paper is
> P. pygmaeum Chodat & Vischer 1880 from Paraguay, I THINK I`ve seen a plant
> of this VERY distinctive small Philodendron, (any of you who were in Miami
> last Sept. may have seen me on Sat. morning wandering around with a leaf of
> this plant in my hand). There is a paper in which there must be a
> discussion on this plant, it is by Dr. Croat and D. Mount. I`d like to
> read the section about it, if anyone has a copy please contact me, it
> is--'Croat, T. B. & Mount, D. (1988) The monocotyledons- A Comparative
> Study. 378 pp., Acadamia Press, London.'
> This is a MOST interesting discussion, and Donna`s information given below
> gives me ammunition to go ask my old buddy Jim about! He will remember the
> names and ways these plants used to be sold in the 'good old days'.
> ENOUGH!
>
> Good growing,
>
> Julius Boos
> WPB,
> Florida
> ju-bo@msn.com
>
> To add to Neil's comments below and Julius' earlier about older collections
> of this species in Florida, some older FL hort books and trade publications
> listed both P. selloum and P. bipinnatifidum as distinct species. About
> 20-30
> years ago in the FL nursery trade sometimes the names were used almost in a
> varietal or even cultivar sense. During those years in the hort trade, the
> P.
> bipinnatifidum "form" was considered superior and more sought after. I seem
> to recall from my retail nursery days in the early-mid 1980s that any plant
> labeled with the name P. bipinnatifidum sold for a higher price than those
> labeled as P. selloum. Probably some unscrupulous nursery owners capitalized
> on this and labeled all their seedling plants with this name to garner a few
> more dollars, other growers actually produced cuttings taken from some
> select
> forms and gave them the P. bipinnatifidum name to distinguish them. The
> latter were far less common in cultivation and quite rightly fetched the
> highest price. Occasionally some newspaper or magazine article would
> elaborate on these plants and discuss the various points of difference
> between the two "forms" in cultivation. Afterwards customers would come in
> asking for P. bipinnatifidum and would turn up their noses at any plant
> labeled with the P. selloum name as a "common" seedling of unknown
> parentage,
> and less desirable, thus we always tried to keep a small supply of plants,
> acquired from trusted wholesale sources as cutting-grown P. bipinnatifidum,
> for our more "discriminating" buyers! In the back nursery area we kept some
> stock plants of a few superior P. bipinnatifidum forms to propagate for
> special customers, because we could not always find a wholesale source for
> the "true" P. bipinnatifidum grown only from cuttings. Later, this P.
> bipinnatifidum name became lost in the trade and all you could find were the
> uniform plants labeled as P. selloum. I guess it simply became uneconomical
> for wholesale growers to produce cuttings of those special forms, so one
> could no longer find all the variations of this species in nurseries.
>
> Donna Atwood<<
>
> << some confusion has existed in the past over P. selloum and P.
> bipinnatifidum....Engler considered them separate species. the two names
> have in the past been used to differentiate two different populations
> (Gottsberger and Amaral 1984) and In 1991 Mayo joined the two into one
> single species ....P. bippinatifidum is the true name....P. selloum has
> been
> reduced into synonomy.
> >>
|
|
From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at email.msn.com> on 2001.12.14 at 15:29:26(7913)
Dear Neil,
Here is the entire list (abbrevated here by me for space ) given by Simon
of Philo. 'sps'. (and I give all the names) he THEN considered as synonmyns
of P. bipinnatifidium --
P. bipinnatifidium Schott ex Endlicher
[Arum pinnatifidium Vellozo (1831)]
[Sphincterostigma bipinnatifidium Schott 1832]
P. selloum C. Koch 1853
P. lundii Warming 1867
P. bipinnatifidium Schott ex Endl. var. lundii (Warming) Engl. 1878
P. selloum K. C. Koch var. lundii (Warming) Engl. 1879-80
?P. pygmaeum Chodat & Vischer 1920
P. mello-barretoanum G. M. Barroso 1957
As is indicated in the paper, this is a COMPLEX of a very variable taxon, so
the leaf shape varies a LOT, even here in Florida amongst some of the old,
grown-from-seed OR seleted from cuttings specimens. The plants now being
sold in bulk from tissue culture are all more or less alike (as one would
expect).
The illus. of the gynoceum of this 'species' in Simon`s work shows two
specimens, he clearly states that they are the extremes of thes 'forms', and
MAN are they are VERY different one from the other!
I believe eventually lots more work will be done on this species complex.
Cheers,
Julius
| +More |
>>Julius
I think Simon also reduced P.mello-barretoanum to synonomy under
P.bipinnatifidum. Having only seen photos of this plant I must admit to
being a
little shocked with this as the leaf form seems substantially different.
Have
you seen this plant in the flesh?
here in Australia all these plants are lumped in as P.selloum but I think
they
are not all tissue cultured plants as you can still find some with variety
in
leaf forms. I have a nice one growing here that is more pinnatifidum than
"bi"pinnatifidum, as the leaves are cut once but only the merest hint of
twice.
Still clearly a Meconostigma plant nevertheless.
I have just selfed my large bipinnatifiduma nd have quite a few seedlings
growing now and I'll be interested to see what variety the seedlings show in
leaf form.
Also I have never seen a red spathed form out here, or anywhere for that
matter.
Green rules!
So much work to be done by someone and so little time!
cheers
Neil
Neil Crafter
Adelaide Australia<<
Julius Boos wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: Philodendron selloum
>
> Dear Petra, Donna and Friends,
>
> In the interest of clarity, I will just give a LITTLE more information
taken
> from Simon Mayo`s EXCELLENT paper, "A revision of Philodendron subgenus
> Meconostigma (Araceae)', published in the Kew Bullitin Vol. 46 ( 4 ), and
> then give my OPINION (and as we all know, opinions are like noses,
EVERYONE
> has one :--)> ).
> Dr. Mayo takes great pains to point out that this is a very confused
taxon,
> occuring in a WIDE area of distribution, and may consist of several
species,
> some as yet undescribed. The two main ones in question are P.
> bipinnatifidium Schott 1832, and P. selloum C. Koch1853 or 1854, (some
> confusion here).
> Dr. Mayo writes as follows---'P. bipinnatifidium, as circumscribed here is
a
> very variable taxon in morphology and color of leaf and inflorescence.
The
> main unifying character is the bipinnatifid leaf blade'---he goes on to
> state--'Like other authors who have studied this species complex in the
> recent past'---'I have taken a broad view of the species. This seems to
be
> the only practical way of dealing with taxanomic difficulties for which
> current knowledge does not provide satisfactory soloutions'. He goes on
to
> explain that the original description was by Schott ---(plant probably
> collected from near Rio de Janero) and that Schott`s manuscript
description
> of 1884 show that his plant had a spathe tube colored purple-brown
> externally, a gynoceum with a well developed central style dome and the
> female zone adnate to the spathe for about half it`s length.
> P. selloum was described by C. Koch (to cut a long story short, it was
from
> cultivated material in Berlin sent to Koch by his friend H. Sello, head
> gardener at Sans Souci, the Imperial Prussian estate at Potsdam, and Koch
> did not see fertile material). Dr. Mayo notes that the confusion between
> these two names may have it`s origin in the professional rivalry between
> Schott and Koch. Schott left illustrations in his Icones Aroideae of his
> P. bipinatifidium and P. selloum, and his illus. of P. selloum showed a
> spathe colored green externally, a pistil with a deep style funnel and NO
> central dome , and the female zone of the spadix adnate to the spathe for
> OVER half its length. Engler (1878: 170), who studied Schott`s
> illustrations, distinguished P. selloum by its green spathe tube longer
than
> the spathe blade, and the entirely adnate female zone. This work by
Engler
> is probably the 'why' of the two names, and when Mayo wrote this paper I
am
> quoting from is when people began considering that the two species were
> synonomyous.
> Now for MY opinion ( which is like a nose, etc. etc. etc.). Based on
what
> I have just detailed, I concur with Dr. Mayo that MUCH more study needs to
> be done with this complex before I can say with certainity whether there
are
> two or even more species involved in this group of broadly distributed
> plants, BUT based on the features of spathe color (exterior and interior),
> size of the respective inflorescences, and especially the seemingly major
> differences in the structure of the female flowers and the length that the
> female portion of the spadix that is adnate to the spathe, that there
> probably are at LEAST two species involved here, so as it stands now P.
> bipinnatifidum and P. selloum can be distinguished one from the other, and
> in my opinion may eventually be 'ruled' to be two 'good' and different
> species.
> The plants that I have studied here in Florida all have an all-green
spathe
> exterior, I have not as yet seen a plant with a purple-brown spathe
> exterior (I THINK someone told me there were plants w/ red-brown spathes
in
> collections??).
> Another 'species' that has been placed into synonomy with P.
bipinnatifidium
> by in Dr Mayo`s in paper is
> P. pygmaeum Chodat & Vischer 1880 from Paraguay, I THINK I`ve seen a plant
> of this VERY distinctive small Philodendron, (any of you who were in Miami
> last Sept. may have seen me on Sat. morning wandering around with a leaf
of
> this plant in my hand). There is a paper in which there must be a
> discussion on this plant, it is by Dr. Croat and D. Mount. I`d like to
> read the section about it, if anyone has a copy please contact me, it
> is--'Croat, T. B. & Mount, D. (1988) The monocotyledons- A Comparative
> Study. 378 pp., Acadamia Press, London.'
> This is a MOST interesting discussion, and Donna`s information given below
> gives me ammunition to go ask my old buddy Jim about! He will remember
the
> names and ways these plants used to be sold in the 'good old days'.
> ENOUGH!
>
> Good growing,
>
> Julius Boos
> WPB,
> Florida
> ju-bo@msn.com
>
> To add to Neil's comments below and Julius' earlier about older
collections
> of this species in Florida, some older FL hort books and trade
publications
> listed both P. selloum and P. bipinnatifidum as distinct species. About
> 20-30
> years ago in the FL nursery trade sometimes the names were used almost in
a
> varietal or even cultivar sense. During those years in the hort trade, the
> P.
> bipinnatifidum "form" was considered superior and more sought after. I
seem
> to recall from my retail nursery days in the early-mid 1980s that any
plant
> labeled with the name P. bipinnatifidum sold for a higher price than those
> labeled as P. selloum. Probably some unscrupulous nursery owners
capitalized
> on this and labeled all their seedling plants with this name to garner a
few
> more dollars, other growers actually produced cuttings taken from some
> select
> forms and gave them the P. bipinnatifidum name to distinguish them. The
> latter were far less common in cultivation and quite rightly fetched the
> highest price. Occasionally some newspaper or magazine article would
> elaborate on these plants and discuss the various points of difference
> between the two "forms" in cultivation. Afterwards customers would come in
> asking for P. bipinnatifidum and would turn up their noses at any plant
> labeled with the P. selloum name as a "common" seedling of unknown
> parentage,
> and less desirable, thus we always tried to keep a small supply of plants,
> acquired from trusted wholesale sources as cutting-grown P.
bipinnatifidum,
> for our more "discriminating" buyers! In the back nursery area we kept
some
> stock plants of a few superior P. bipinnatifidum forms to propagate for
> special customers, because we could not always find a wholesale source for
> the "true" P. bipinnatifidum grown only from cuttings. Later, this P.
> bipinnatifidum name became lost in the trade and all you could find were
the
> uniform plants labeled as P. selloum. I guess it simply became
uneconomical
> for wholesale growers to produce cuttings of those special forms, so one
> could no longer find all the variations of this species in nurseries.
>
> Donna Atwood<<
>
> << some confusion has existed in the past over P. selloum and P.
> bipinnatifidum....Engler considered them separate species. the two names
> have in the past been used to differentiate two different populations
> (Gottsberger and Amaral 1984) and In 1991 Mayo joined the two into one
> single species ....P. bippinatifidum is the true name....P. selloum has
> been
> reduced into synonomy.
> >>
|
|
From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at email.msn.com> on 2001.12.14 at 15:31:58(7914)
Dear Russ,
I`m sure all of the 'forms' that you remember and mention below are still in
cultivation, but I`d GUESS that with the publication of Dr. Mayo`s paper
which synonomised many into one (P. bipinnatafidium) that the growers just
'dropped' labeling them, and all have 'fallen' into just one or two names,
either P. 'selloum' (the commercial name under which they are sold in bulk)
or P. bipinnatifidium, the name that us 'scientifically minded' guys tend to
use. A few old-timers like my friend Jim still remember the old forms, and
take pains to point them out when you visit!!
As Brian mentions, seed of some of these old forms are available from Dr.
Seidel in Brazil, I would not mind going in on an order and seeing what we
can grow out of them!
Good growing,
Julius
| +More |
>>Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion. Very
interesting, and enlightening. I did not
know that selloum/bipinnatifidum were considered the same in any circles,
but being 'at large' for my entire
'Aroid life', information has always been hard to come by.
Does the selloum variety 'Uruguay' still exist somewhere? My old Exotica
references a 'German Selloum'
from German seed considered a more graceful form, finely cut and wavy leaf
segments.
What about bipinnatifidum 'Seaside'? or lundii 'Sao Paulo'? Still in
cultivation?
Petra, where in zone 7B are you with the winter hardy selloum? Are you
protecting in any way?
Russ.<<
|
|
From: Tony Avent tony at plantdel.com> on 2001.12.14 at 15:32:17(7915)
Russ:
The plant of P. selloum to which Petra alludes is one that I planted
nearly 15 years ago when I worked at the NC State Fairgrounds in Raleigh
NC. Someone had left the plant after a weekend flea market, so we planted
it in our "tropical garden" there, as an after thought. The first year, we
mulched it lightly and was surprised when it returned. Since it was large
next year, we left it unmulched and have done so ever since. It has been
through at least four winters of zero degrees F.
After I left eight years ago, the plant has been virtually unattended and
almost shaded out, but it is still alive. Since this time, I have tried a
couple of locally purchased P. selloum plants, but have had none to survive
our winters. I can only imagine that high elevation forms might be quite
reliable in zone 7b.
>
| +More |
>Petra, where in zone 7B are you with the winter hardy selloum? Are you
>protecting in any way?
>
>Russ.
>
>
>
Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, NC 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email tony@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdel.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 662-0370
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least
three times" - Avent
|
|
From: "Eduardo Goncalves" edggon at hotmail.com> on 2001.12.14 at 15:32:32(7916)
Dear Aroiders,
Just a quick note from a busy man. It seems that at least three species
reduced to synonimy under P. bipinnatifidum by Simon are good species: P.
bipinnatifidum itself (from Southeastern South America, including Argentina,
Paraguay, Uruguay, Southern Brazil and Brazilian shore up to Rio de
Janeiro); P. mello-barretoanum (central Brazil, mainly middle to uplands of
Goias and Mato Grosso, maybe Bolivia too) and P. lundii (Goi?s, Minas Gerais
and Bahia, usually above 800m). As far as I could observe, they are
different not only geographically, but also morphologically, but most
differences are in the stems and petioles (and also inflorescences), not in
their leaves. However, when Simon made his revision of the group, there
weren't appropriate collections of all taxa, so most of the plants he could
see were true P. bipinnatifidum (including the elusive "P. selloum", that
seems to be the same thing anyway). Since then, I could collect a lot of
material and look for patterns. I have a paper almost done, probably to be
published in the next Aroideana, if I can complete a couple of things.
Very best wishes,
Eduardo.
| +More |
P.S.1. Most P. bipinnatifidum plants from the shore have reddish to maroon
spathe ("bipinnatifidum" form), whereas most plants from the country have a
plain green spathe ("selloum" form). However, I could find both "forms" in
both areas and some areas (like around Sao Paulo city) has both forms in
almost equal frequency.
P.S.2. Philodendron mello-barretoanum has very robust intravaginal
squamules, turning real thorns.
>From: Neil Crafter
>Reply-To: aroid-l@mobot.org
>To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L
>Subject: Re: Philodendron selloum
>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:57:06 -0600 (CST)
>
>Julius
>I think Simon also reduced P.mello-barretoanum to synonomy under
>P.bipinnatifidum. Having only seen photos of this plant I must admit to
>being a
>little shocked with this as the leaf form seems substantially different.
>Have
>you seen this plant in the flesh?
>
>here in Australia all these plants are lumped in as P.selloum but I think
>they
>are not all tissue cultured plants as you can still find some with variety
>in
>leaf forms. I have a nice one growing here that is more pinnatifidum than
>"bi"pinnatifidum, as the leaves are cut once but only the merest hint of
>twice.
>Still clearly a Meconostigma plant nevertheless.
>
>I have just selfed my large bipinnatifiduma nd have quite a few seedlings
>growing now and I'll be interested to see what variety the seedlings show
>in
>leaf form.
>
>Also I have never seen a red spathed form out here, or anywhere for that
>matter.
>Green rules!
>
>So much work to be done by someone and so little time!
>cheers
>Neil
>Neil Crafter
>Adelaide Australia
>
>Julius Boos wrote:
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
> > To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L
> > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: Philodendron selloum
> >
> > Dear Petra, Donna and Friends,
> >
> > In the interest of clarity, I will just give a LITTLE more information
>taken
> > from Simon Mayo`s EXCELLENT paper, "A revision of Philodendron subgenus
> > Meconostigma (Araceae)', published in the Kew Bullitin Vol. 46 ( 4 ),
>and
> > then give my OPINION (and as we all know, opinions are like noses,
>EVERYONE
> > has one :--)> ).
> > Dr. Mayo takes great pains to point out that this is a very confused
>taxon,
> > occuring in a WIDE area of distribution, and may consist of several
>species,
> > some as yet undescribed. The two main ones in question are P.
> > bipinnatifidium Schott 1832, and P. selloum C. Koch1853 or 1854, (some
> > confusion here).
> > Dr. Mayo writes as follows---'P. bipinnatifidium, as circumscribed here
>is a
> > very variable taxon in morphology and color of leaf and inflorescence.
>The
> > main unifying character is the bipinnatifid leaf blade'---he goes on to
> > state--'Like other authors who have studied this species complex in the
> > recent past'---'I have taken a broad view of the species. This seems to
>be
> > the only practical way of dealing with taxanomic difficulties for which
> > current knowledge does not provide satisfactory soloutions'. He goes
>on to
> > explain that the original dsecription was by Schott ---(plant probably
> > collected from near Rio de Janero) and that Schott`s manuscript
>description
> > of 1884 show that his plant had a spathe tube colored purple-brown
> > externally, a gynoceum with a well developed central style dome and the
> > female zone adnate to the spathe for about half it`s length.
> > P. selloum was described by C. Koch (to cut a long story short, it was
>from
> > cultivated material in Berlin sent to Koch by his friend H. Sello, head
> > gradener at Sans Souci, the Imperial Prussian estate at Potsdam, and
>Koch
> > did not see fertile material). Dr. Mayo notes that the confusion
>between
> > these two names may have it`s origin in the professional rivalry between
> > Schott and Koch. Schott left illustrations in his Icones Aroideae of
>his
> > P. bipinatifidium and P. selloum, and his illus. of P. selloum showed a
> > spathe colored green externally, a pistil with a deep style funnel and
>NO
> > central dome , and the female zone of the spadix adnate to the spathe
>for
> > OVER half its length. Engler (1878: 170), who studied Schott`s
> > illustrations, distinguished P. selloum by its green spathe tube longer
>than
> > the spathe blade, and the entirely adnate female zone. This work by
>Engler
> > is probably the 'why' of the two names, and when Mayo wrote this paper I
>am
> > quoting from is when people began considering that the two species were
> > synonomyous.
> > Now for MY opinion ( which is like a nose, etc. etc. etc.). Based on
>what
> > I have just detailed, I concur with Dr. Mayo that MUCH more study needs
>to
> > be done with this complex before I can say with certainity whether there
>are
> > two or even more species involved in this group of broadly distributed
> > plants, BUT based on the features of spathe color (exterior and
>interior),
> > size of the respective inflorescences, and especially the seemingly
>major
> > differences in the structure of the female flowers and the length that
>the
> > female portion of the spadix that is adnate to the spathe, that there
> > probably are at LEAST two species involved here, so as it stands now P.
> > bipinnatifidum and P. selloum can be distinguished one from the other,
>and
> > in my opinion may eventually be 'ruled' to be two 'good' and different
> > species.
> > The plants that I have studied here in Florida all have an all-green
>spathe
> > exterior, I have not as yet sen a plant with a purple-brown spathehe
> > exterior (I THINK someone told me there were plants w/ red-brown spathes
>in
> > collections??).
> > Another 'species' that has been placed into synonomy with P.
>bipinnatifidium
> > by in Dr Mayo`s in paper is
> > P. pygmaeum Chodat & Vischer 1880 from Paraguay, I THINK I`ve seen a
>plant
> > of this VERY distinctive small Philodendron, (any of you who were in
>Miami
> > last Sept. may have seen me on Sat. morning wandering around with a leaf
>of
> > this plant in my hand). There is a paper in which there must be a
> > discussion on this plant, it is by Dr. Croat and D. Mount. I`d like
>to
> > read the section about it, if anyone has a copy please contact me, it
> > is--'Croat, T. B. & Mount, D. (1988) The monocotyledons- A Comparative
> > Study. 378 pp., Acadamia Press, London.'
> > This is a MOST interesting discussion, and Donna`s information given
>below
> > gives me ammunition to go ask my old buddy Jim about! He will remember
>the
> > names and ways these plants used to be sold in the 'good old days'.
> > ENOUGH!
> >
> > Good growing,
> >
> > Julius Boos
> > WPB,
> > Florida
> > ju-bo@msn.com
> >
> > To add to Neil's comments below and Julius' earlier about older
>collections
> > of this species in Florida, some older FL hort books and trade
>publications
> > listed both P. selloum and P. bipinnatifidum as distinct species. About
> > 20-30
> > years ago in the FL nursery trade sometimes the names were used almost
>in a
> > varietal or even cultivar sense. During those years in the hort trade,
>the
> > P.
> > bipinnatifidum "form" was considered superior and more sought after. I
>seem
> > to recall from my retail nursery days in the early-mid 1980s that any
>plant
> > labeled with the name P. bipinnatifidum sold for a higher price than
>those
> > labeled as P. selloum. Probably some unscrupulous nursery owners
>capitalized
> > on this and labeled all their seedling plants with this name to garner a
>few
> > more dollars, other growers actually produced cuttings taken from some
> > select
> > forms and gave them the P. bipinnatifidum name to distinguish them. The
> > latter were far less common in cultivation and quite rightly fetched the
> > highest price. Occasionally some newspaper or magazine article would
> > elaborate on these plants and discuss the various points of difference
> > between the two "forms" in cultivation. Afterwards customers would come
>in
> > asking for P. bipinnatifidum and would turn up their noses at any plant
> > labeled with the P. selloum name as a "common" seedling of unknown
> > parentage,
> > and less desirable, thus we always tried to keep a small supply of
>plants,
> > acquired from trusted wholesale sources as cutting-grown P.
>bipinnatifidum,
> > for our more "discriminating" buyers! In the back nursery area we kept
>some
> > stock plants of a few superior P. bipinnatifidum forms to propagate for
> > special customers, because we could not always find a wholesale source
>for
> > the "true" P. bipinnatifidum grown only from cuttings. Later, this P.
> > bipinnatifidum name became lost in the trade and all you could find were
>the
> > uniform plants labeled as P. selloum. I guess it simply became
>uneconomical
> > for wholesale growers to produce cuttings of those special forms, so one
> > could no longer find all the variations of this species in nurseries.
> >
> > Donna Atwood<<
> >
> > << some confusion has existed in the past over P. selloum and P.
> > bipinnatifidum....Engler considered them separate species. the two
>names
> > have in the past been used to differentiate two different populations
> > (Gottsberger and Amaral 1984) and In 1991 Mayo joined the two into one
> > single species ....P. bippinatifidum is the true name....P. selloum has
> > been
> > reduced into synonomy.
> > >>
>
Eduardo G. Goncalves
Laboratorio de Fitoquimica
Depto. de Botanica - IB
Universidade de Sao Paulo
Caixa Postal 11461 - CEP 05422-970
Sao Paulo - SP - BRAZIL
e-mail: edggon@hotmail.com
edggon@ib.usp.br
Phone: 55 11 3818-7532
FAX : 55 11 3818-7547
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
|
|
From: Arno King arnoking at yahoo.com> on 2001.12.15 at 03:06:33(7917)
Some 10 years ago I visited the Seidel Nursery in
Corupa, Brazil. Behind the shadehouses, the large
arborescent Philodendrons are grown in what I remember
to be a large paddock area.
There were many plants in this area and there were a
lot of different species or forms collected from all
around Brazil. Some were very different to anything I
had ever seen before.The plants were very large and I
was told how they were hand pollinated to set seed. I
suspect that there would also be some natural cross
pollination ocuuring between plants.
I have seen quite a bit of variation in seedlings
grown from this seed. I was also told that the
Phildendron marketed as 'Xanadu'(also known as
'Winterborn') came up in this seed in a nursery in
Perth, Western Australia. A similar plant recently
came up in seed grown in a nursery in Wynnum,
Brisbane.
| +More |
This plant is being marketed as 'Millenium, however it
has not proved popular. Although almost identical to
'Xanadu'the leaves are not as regularly placed, so the
plant appears untidy. It would be great to cross
polinate thes two plants and see what the progeny turn
out like. This may also help track down the true
identity of these plants.
Arno King, Brisbane Australia
--- brian williams wrote:
> Dear Julius and others. I thought it maybe
> interesting to know that ALVIM
> SEIDEL the nursery in Brazil. Has Philo selloum
> seeds for sell. Not only one
> form but all these forms.
> selloum 9.00
> selloum var compactum 20.00
> selloum var Sao Paulo 12.00
> Selloum var Urugay 12.00
>
>
> also
> bipinnatifidum 8.00
>
> As from reading other e-mails it would be nice to
> see what a lot of the
> seedlings would come out to look like.
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>
=====
Arno
arnoking@yahoo.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
|
|
From: "Clarence Hammer" chammer at cfl.rr.com> on 2001.12.18 at 05:05:19(7937)
Thank you all for the great feedback concerning P. selloum, bipinnatifidum
and others. It definitely seems
a lot more work on this group is necessary to sort these plants out. The
apparent variability of each doesn't
help matters.
| +More |
Tony, thank you for the info on the selloum mentioned by Petra. Wow, who
woulda thunk it.....North Carolina! It's certainly one hardy Philodendron,
and is exceptional considering the other plantings have not survived. I
would never have thought any Philodendron species would survive 0 degree
temperatures with minimal or no protection, even selloum. The fact that it
is now 'shaded out' tells me it may have a bit warmer microclimate under a
canopy of trees which may help it survive future winters, but will not be
good for summer growth in
deep shade.
How large does this plant get during the summer? 3 or 4 foot leaves, or
much smaller?
Russ.
|
|
From: Tony Avent tony at plantdel.com> on 2001.12.18 at 16:10:29(7940)
Russ:
Before the shade began to encroach on the planting I mentioned, the P.
selloum would reach 2' tall x 4' wide each season.
The fact that it
>is now 'shaded out' tells me it may have a bit warmer microclimate under a
>canopy of trees which may help it survive future winters, but will not be
>good for summer growth in
>deep shade.
>
>How large does this plant get during the summer? 3 or 4 foot leaves, or
>much smaller?
>
>Russ.
>
>
>
>
>
Tony Avent
| +More |
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, NC 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email tony@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdel.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 662-0370
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least
three times" - Avent
|
|
From: StellrJ at aol.com on 2001.12.18 at 16:10:52(7942)
In a message dated Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:06:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Clarence Hammer" writes:
The fact that it
> is now 'shaded out' tells me it may have a bit warmer microclimate under a
> canopy of trees which may help it survive future winters, but will not be
> good for summer growth in
> deep shade.
| +More |
>
Hmmm... now if only there were "reverse-deciduous" trees; then, it could be under tree canopy in winter, and have sun in summer.
Jason Hernandez
Naturalist-at-Large
|
|
From: "Clarence Hammer" chammer at cfl.rr.com> on 2001.12.21 at 14:30:57(7968)
Thanks for that info, Tony. In spite of it's obvious hardiness, if you ever
want
to give this plant a climate more to it's liking, I'll be happy to pay the
| +More |
postage and will plant it on my 1 1/2 acre with my other selloums.
Russ.
> Before the shade began to encroach on the planting I mentioned, the P.
> selloum would reach 2' tall x 4' wide each season.
> three times" - Avent
|
|
Note: this is a very old post, so no reply function is available.
|
|