Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others...

From: James Waddick <jwaddick at kc.rr.com> on 2010.07.07 at 19:03:55(21162) > I've posted images of the flower this spring, and the plant as it >currently grows in comparison with both putative >parents, Sauromatum venosum and Pinellia pedatisecta. > >http://www.plantdelights.com/gallery/Aroids/Copy_of_Sauromatum_x_pinellia_in_bud Dear Tony This is a fascinating topic. As you probably know both Sauromatum venosum (aka Typhonium) has a chromosome number of 2N= 26. This is the same for Pinellia pedatisecta and some (but not all ) others in this genus ie 2N = 26 I realize that chromosome nos. of themselves has little meaning, but suggests a likelier road to hybridization. In your differentiation of these two species you did not mention what seems the easiest and most consistent feature- petiole pattern. In Sauromatum the petiole is more or less heavily brown spotted and blotched, while Pinellia pedatisecta has no spots and is uniformly green. I have a hard time keeping Sauromatum alive outdoors in the ground, but somehow tubers pop up in pots as do Pinellia. The petiole pattern is always a dead give away even on small plants. +More I didn't find your pix of the hybrid flower, but I'll search some more unless you have a handy url. In this same discussion, the cv "Indian Giant' is brought to mind. This is a much larger form of S. venosum. Could it be a tetraploid? Has anyone compared chromosome numbers to the typical, smaller form? And is this, by the way, any more or less hardier than the typical form? And even a bit father afield are the 2 species Dracunculus vulgaris and Helicodiceros m. The former is found in the western Mediterranean islands and has a 2N= 28. The latter is found in the Eastern Medterranean with 2n = 56. Apparently there's no place where both occur in nature. Is Helicodiceros derived from a tetraploid ancestor of Dracunculus vulgaris or do they both share a diploid, and at one time more wide spread, ancestor? More importantly can they be hybridized to produce a triploid F1? Growing these species in close proximity as you do encourages bee produced hybrids to form. I really enjoy your exploring this here. More as I give it more thought. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Tony Avent" <tony at plantdelights.com> on 2010.07.07 at 20:28:23(21163) Jim: The petiole pattern on Saurmatum opens up yet another can of worms...or would the term maggots be more appropriate. The difference between the petioles of Sauromatum venosum 'Indian Giant' and typical Sauromatum venosum is the size and amount of spots. S. 'Indian Giant' has large spots, but the are sparse. The typical S. venuosum, therefore, has much smaller spots and more of them. We planted the two parents side by side and gathered op seed, of which we have now flowered nearly 1000 plants. The petioles patterns are a total mix, with even showing no spots. If the S. 'Indian Giant' was a tetraploid, the crosses back to the typical form should be probably sterile triploids, which does not seem to be the case. On our purported hybrid, the petiole spots are closer to typical S. venosum, which is what I would anticipate with a cross of Pinellia (no spots) and Sauromatum (spots). I would consider the multiple shoots from the same corm and the lack of a fully developed flower as the most compelling evidence of intergeneric hybridization. You should be able to page back and forth to see the flower image on the gallery, but if not, go to http://www.plantdelights.com/gallery/Aroids/Copy_of_Sauromatum_x_pinellia_in _bud Tony Avent +More Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent -----Original Message----- From: aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of James Waddick Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 3:04 PM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others... > I've posted images of the flower this spring, and the plant as it >currently grows in comparison with both putative parents, Sauromatum >venosum and Pinellia pedatisecta. > >http://www.plantdelights.com/gallery/Aroids/Copy_of_Sauromatum_x_pinell >ia_in_bud Dear Tony This is a fascinating topic. As you probably know both Sauromatum venosum (aka Typhonium) has a chromosome number of 2N= 26. This is the same for Pinellia pedatisecta and some (but not all ) others in this genus ie 2N = 26 I realize that chromosome nos. of themselves has little meaning, but suggests a likelier road to hybridization. In your differentiation of these two species you did not mention what seems the easiest and most consistent feature- petiole pattern. In Sauromatum the petiole is more or less heavily brown spotted and blotched, while Pinellia pedatisecta has no spots and is uniformly green. I have a hard time keeping Sauromatum alive outdoors in the ground, but somehow tubers pop up in pots as do Pinellia. The petiole pattern is always a dead give away even on small plants. I didn't find your pix of the hybrid flower, but I'll search some more unless you have a handy url. In this same discussion, the cv "Indian Giant' is brought to mind. This is a much larger form of S. venosum. Could it be a tetraploid? Has anyone compared chromosome numbers to the typical, smaller form? And is this, by the way, any more or less hardier than the typical form? And even a bit father afield are the 2 species Dracunculus vulgaris and Helicodiceros m. The former is found in the western Mediterranean islands and has a 2N= 28. The latter is found in the Eastern Medterranean with 2n = 56. Apparently there's no place where both occur in nature. Is Helicodiceros derived from a tetraploid ancestor of Dracunculus vulgaris or do they both share a diploid, and at one time more wide spread, ancestor? More importantly can they be hybridized to produce a triploid F1? Growing these species in close proximity as you do encourages bee produced hybrids to form. I really enjoy your exploring this here. More as I give it more thought. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Brian Williams <pugturd at windstream.net> on 2010.07.08 at 03:26:19(21164) Tony your hybrid is very interesting. It is always good to see something that many consider impossible possible. It just makes me wonder what all could be if just tried in this odd family of plants. +More _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "plantguy at zoominternet.net" <plantguy at zoominternet.net> on 2010.07.08 at 13:11:24(21166) Hi Tony and all, I guess the pics of the leaves, petioles and tuber are not at all convincing to me, but I could be the only one. I have at least a half-dozen so-called 'Indian Giant' growing in my yard and pots (originally from you) with a second petiole from the same growth point (the original petiole is splitting at the base as you see in Dracontium) already and we are very early in the growing season here in Pittsburgh. Given that this is "normal" (for me anyway) then couldn't you have a simple mutation that could take you from 2-3 petioles to 4-5 (no mutation is simple to understand in terms of genotype/phenotype of course)? The flower pics make it look very ill-formed so hard to tell for me, but you have seen it up-close so have a better idea. I'm guessing you already preserved the flower so that it could be examined by someone like Wilbert? Have you sent plant material to someone for genetic testing, which is likely the only way to get a solid answer to your question? Was the flower sterile or could you back-cross? It is an interesting question you pose and I wish you all the luck in figuring it out with absolute certainty. Dan +More Gibsonia, PA Original Message: ----------------- From: Tony Avent tony@plantdelights.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 16:28:23 -0400 To: aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others... Jim: The petiole pattern on Saurmatum opens up yet another can of worms...or would the term maggots be more appropriate. The difference between the petioles of Sauromatum venosum 'Indian Giant' and typical Sauromatum venosum is the size and amount of spots. S. 'Indian Giant' has large spots, but the are sparse. The typical S. venuosum, therefore, has much smaller spots and more of them. We planted the two parents side by side and gathered op seed, of which we have now flowered nearly 1000 plants. The petioles patterns are a total mix, with even showing no spots. If the S. 'Indian Giant' was a tetraploid, the crosses back to the typical form should be probably sterile triploids, which does not seem to be the case. On our purported hybrid, the petiole spots are closer to typical S. venosum, which is what I would anticipate with a cross of Pinellia (no spots) and Sauromatum (spots). I would consider the multiple shoots from the same corm and the lack of a fully developed flower as the most compelling evidence of intergeneric hybridization. You should be able to page back and forth to see the flower image on the gallery, but if not, go to http://www.plantdelights.com/gallery/Aroids/Copy_of_Sauromatum_x_pinellia_in _bud Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent -----Original Message----- From: aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of James Waddick Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 3:04 PM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others... > I've posted images of the flower this spring, and the plant as it >currently grows in comparison with both putative parents, Sauromatum >venosum and Pinellia pedatisecta. > >http://www.plantdelights.com/gallery/Aroids/Copy_of_Sauromatum_x_pinell >ia_in_bud Dear Tony This is a fascinating topic. As you probably know both Sauromatum venosum (aka Typhonium) has a chromosome number of 2N= 26. This is the same for Pinellia pedatisecta and some (but not all ) others in this genus ie 2N = 26 I realize that chromosome nos. of themselves has little meaning, but suggests a likelier road to hybridization. In your differentiation of these two species you did not mention what seems the easiest and most consistent feature- petiole pattern. In Sauromatum the petiole is more or less heavily brown spotted and blotched, while Pinellia pedatisecta has no spots and is uniformly green. I have a hard time keeping Sauromatum alive outdoors in the ground, but somehow tubers pop up in pots as do Pinellia. The petiole pattern is always a dead give away even on small plants. I didn't find your pix of the hybrid flower, but I'll search some more unless you have a handy url. In this same discussion, the cv "Indian Giant' is brought to mind. This is a much larger form of S. venosum. Could it be a tetraploid? Has anyone compared chromosome numbers to the typical, smaller form? And is this, by the way, any more or less hardier than the typical form? And even a bit father afield are the 2 species Dracunculus vulgaris and Helicodiceros m. The former is found in the western Mediterranean islands and has a 2N= 28. The latter is found in the Eastern Medterranean with 2n = 56. Apparently there's no place where both occur in nature. Is Helicodiceros derived from a tetraploid ancestor of Dracunculus vulgaris or do they both share a diploid, and at one time more wide spread, ancestor? More importantly can they be hybridized to produce a triploid F1? Growing these species in close proximity as you do encourages bee produced hybrids to form. I really enjoy your exploring this here. More as I give it more thought. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com – What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Tony Avent" <tony at plantdelights.com> on 2010.07.14 at 21:12:39(21188) Dan: This was the first year for the purported hybrid to flower, so I sacrificed the flower for photography. The flower was deformed this year, which if it occurs this way next year, would lend credence to hybrid origin. I am waiting for anyone who has the ability to do perform DNA testing to contact me for a sample. While I agree that some sauromatum can produce a second petiole for a short time, this plant consistently holds the same four petioles all season. If it is indeed a mutant sauromatum, it would be unlikely (not impossible) to have so many atypical characteristics (different sheen on the leaf back, extra petioles all season, a wider leaf rachis, and a deformed spadix). Thanks for the thoughts. Tony Avent +More Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent -----Original Message----- From: aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of plantguy@zoominternet.net Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2010 9:11 AM To: aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others... Hi Tony and all, I guess the pics of the leaves, petioles and tuber are not at all convincing to me, but I could be the only one. I have at least a half-dozen so-called 'Indian Giant' growing in my yard and pots (originally from you) with a second petiole from the same growth point (the original petiole is splitting at the base as you see in Dracontium) already and we are very early in the growing season here in Pittsburgh. Given that this is "normal" (for me anyway) then couldn't you have a simple mutation that could take you from 2-3 petioles to 4-5 (no mutation is simple to understand in terms of genotype/phenotype of course)? The flower pics make it look very ill-formed so hard to tell for me, but you have seen it up-close so have a better idea. I'm guessing you already preserved the flower so that it could be examined by someone like Wilbert? Have you sent plant material to someone for genetic testing, which is likely the only way to get a solid answer to your question? Was the flower sterile or could you back-cross? It is an interesting question you pose and I wish you all the luck in figuring it out with absolute certainty. Dan Gibsonia, PA Original Message: ----------------- From: Tony Avent tony@plantdelights.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 16:28:23 -0400 To: aroid-l@www.gizmoworks.com Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others... Jim: The petiole pattern on Saurmatum opens up yet another can of worms...or would the term maggots be more appropriate. The difference between the petioles of Sauromatum venosum 'Indian Giant' and typical Sauromatum venosum is the size and amount of spots. S. 'Indian Giant' has large spots, but the are sparse. The typical S. venuosum, therefore, has much smaller spots and more of them. We planted the two parents side by side and gathered op seed, of which we have now flowered nearly 1000 plants. The petioles patterns are a total mix, with even showing no spots. If the S. 'Indian Giant' was a tetraploid, the crosses back to the typical form should be probably sterile triploids, which does not seem to be the case. On our purported hybrid, the petiole spots are closer to typical S. venosum, which is what I would anticipate with a cross of Pinellia (no spots) and Sauromatum (spots). I would consider the multiple shoots from the same corm and the lack of a fully developed flower as the most compelling evidence of intergeneric hybridization. You should be able to page back and forth to see the flower image on the gallery, but if not, go to http://www.plantdelights.com/gallery/Aroids/Copy_of_Sauromatum_x_pinellia_in _bud Tony Avent Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent -----Original Message----- From: aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of James Waddick Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 3:04 PM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others... > I've posted images of the flower this spring, and the plant as it >currently grows in comparison with both putative parents, Sauromatum >venosum and Pinellia pedatisecta. > >http://www.plantdelights.com/gallery/Aroids/Copy_of_Sauromatum_x_pinell >ia_in_bud Dear Tony This is a fascinating topic. As you probably know both Sauromatum venosum (aka Typhonium) has a chromosome number of 2N= 26. This is the same for Pinellia pedatisecta and some (but not all ) others in this genus ie 2N = 26 I realize that chromosome nos. of themselves has little meaning, but suggests a likelier road to hybridization. In your differentiation of these two species you did not mention what seems the easiest and most consistent feature- petiole pattern. In Sauromatum the petiole is more or less heavily brown spotted and blotched, while Pinellia pedatisecta has no spots and is uniformly green. I have a hard time keeping Sauromatum alive outdoors in the ground, but somehow tubers pop up in pots as do Pinellia. The petiole pattern is always a dead give away even on small plants. I didn't find your pix of the hybrid flower, but I'll search some more unless you have a handy url. In this same discussion, the cv "Indian Giant' is brought to mind. This is a much larger form of S. venosum. Could it be a tetraploid? Has anyone compared chromosome numbers to the typical, smaller form? And is this, by the way, any more or less hardier than the typical form? And even a bit father afield are the 2 species Dracunculus vulgaris and Helicodiceros m. The former is found in the western Mediterranean islands and has a 2N= 28. The latter is found in the Eastern Medterranean with 2n = 56. Apparently there's no place where both occur in nature. Is Helicodiceros derived from a tetraploid ancestor of Dracunculus vulgaris or do they both share a diploid, and at one time more wide spread, ancestor? More importantly can they be hybridized to produce a triploid F1? Growing these species in close proximity as you do encourages bee produced hybrids to form. I really enjoy your exploring this here. More as I give it more thought. Best Jim W. -- Dr. James W. Waddick 8871 NW Brostrom Rd. Kansas City Missouri 64152-2711 USA Ph. 816-746-1949 Zone 5 Record low -23F Summer 100F + _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Tony Avent" <tony at plantdelights.com> on 2010.07.14 at 21:14:34(21189) Brian: Knowing your propensity for out-of-the-box breeding, I can only imagine what crosses you might be inclined to make this season...good luck! Tony Avent +More Plant Delights Nursery @ Juniper Level Botanic Garden 9241 Sauls Road Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F USDA Hardiness Zone 7b email tony@plantdelights.com website http://www.plantdelights.com phone 919 772-4794 fax 919 772-4752 "I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at least three times" - Avent -----Original Message----- From: aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@www.gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of Brian Williams Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 11:26 PM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Sauromatum x Pinellia hybrid.... and others... Tony your hybrid is very interesting. It is always good to see something that many consider impossible possible. It just makes me wonder what all could be if just tried in this odd family of plants. _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

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