Aroid breeding problems

From: Brian Williams <pugturd at alltel.net> on 2009.01.04 at 22:35:51(18859) I have been working on breeding aroids for many years now. I have found a few species that show some very interesting traits that I am looking to work with. These aroids are self fertile but if I add pollen from a different similar species it never takes. I remember having similar problems with Amorphophallus bulbifer. What is the cause of this and why is the pollen unable to take? It really does not make much sense to me sense the plant is fertile and able to receive it's own pollen. I would think that a similar species would easily cross with it. Is their any way around this barricade? +More _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: agrsuw at ku.ac.th on 2009.01.05 at 08:40:17(18862) It is called "Cross incompatibility". It doesn't occur in all aroids, but a few species. Pollination with mix pollen might help in some case. Delay pollination (pollinate toward the end of anthesis time just before the stigma surface no longer sticky) might worth a try. Quoting Brian Williams : > I have been working on breeding aroids for many years now. I have found +More > a few species that show some very interesting traits that I am looking > to work with. These aroids are self fertile but if I add pollen from a > different similar species it never takes. I remember having similar > problems with Amorphophallus bulbifer. What is the cause of this and why > is the pollen unable to take? It really does not make much sense to me > sense the plant is fertile and able to receive it's own pollen. I would > think that a similar species would easily cross with it. Is their any > way around this barricade? > _______________________________________________ > Aroid-L mailing list > Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com > http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2009.01.05 at 10:22:26(18863) Dear Brian, Because GOD--and some aroid freaks around (I GUESS I am one of them) don`t like hybrids!  :--) Seriously, I`m certain that others will explain the ''whys'' of this ''reluctance'' of a ''good'' species to ''reject'' the pollen of another seemingly related species, but if there were not these ''barricades'' would`nt you think that pretty soon there would only be ONE species "left standing"? Julius > Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:35:51 -0500 > From: pugturd@alltel.net HTML +More > To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com > Subject: [Aroid-l] Aroid breeding problems > > I have been working on breeding aroids for many years now. I have found > a few species that show some very interesting traits that I am looking > to work with. These aroids are self fertile but if I add pollen from a > different similar species it never takes. I remember having similar > problems with Amorphophallus bulbifer. What is the cause of this and why > is the pollen unable to take? It really does not make much sense to me > sense the plant is fertile and able to receive it's own pollen. I would > think that a similar species would easily cross with it. Is their any > way around this barricade? > _______________________________________________ > Aroid-L mailing list > Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com > http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l --_995bf3bb-abaf-4d45-9316-a751b25f0d65_----==============‘47930300802619879=

From: "derek burch" <dburch23 at bellsouth.net> on 2009.01.05 at 19:15:03(18866) Brian, It isn't that uncommon in other families for self fertile plants to reject foreign pollen - not very smart from the point of vies of maintaining diversity, but plants are not really noted for their long-range planning. The incompatibility can take many forms - chemical rejection, chemical incompatibility, even physical rejection. I remember working in the orchid genus Brassavola where 'foreign' pollen (same genus, different species) would fail on some species in which the pollen tube had to grow a long distance from the stigma down the style to the ovules, when the pollen just did not have the stamina to grow that far. I'm sure that someone with more experience with aroids will have ideas on this. Do you see any beginnings of swelling of the ovule? In that case, some sort of "green pod" (as its called in orchids) tissue culture might bring the embryo to maturity. In this case the pollen tube would have reached the ovule and fertilized it, but other chemical factors would have come into play to stop further development. Getting seeds to form, mature and germinate is a very complex business with many, many things that can go wrong (and only one chance to go right).You might be better off forgetting your plant-breeding dreams and playing the lottery. Regards, Derek +More -----Original Message----- From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] On Behalf Of Brian Williams Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 5:36 PM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: [Aroid-l] Aroid breeding problems I have been working on breeding aroids for many years now. I have found a few species that show some very interesting traits that I am looking to work with. These aroids are self fertile but if I add pollen from a different similar species it never takes. I remember having similar problems with Amorphophallus bulbifer. What is the cause of this and why is the pollen unable to take? It really does not make much sense to me sense the plant is fertile and able to receive it's own pollen. I would think that a similar species would easily cross with it. Is their any way around this barricade? _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Brian Williams <pugturd at alltel.net> on 2009.01.06 at 07:39:05(18872) It looks like the pollen of this plant is good on other plants in the same genus but no pollen from the other species seems to work with it. I am guessing I will have to back cross the hybrids back to the this plant the father. +More Julius as for pure species aren't alot of them just ancient natural hybrids? I have always loved the true species. The problem is some of the best forms are hard for me to grow up north. So I am trying to make them a little faster hardier and tougher. Adding color and other traits is always a pluse. Don't worry Julius I am not messing with any of your favorite genus groups (YET!) I know this may open a box of worms, but I am curious if these plants are said to evolve from one another then why are these barricades even present? I can see this being more difficult for other genus but for different species it seems very odd. You would think more genus crosses would be more frequent and not as rare as they seem to be as well. Just my thoughts. _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Brian Williams <pugturd at alltel.net> on 2009.01.06 at 07:48:03(18873) Derek so far their does not seem to be any berry growth at all. I am thinking the pollen tube is unable to reach the ovules. I have my lottery numbers each week. Fingers always crossed. I have been successful in producing a lot of things I have been after personally. Specially in the canna breeding and as well in my aroid breeding. I am not sure if any will make me rich but I have enjoyed the process and the out comes so far. +More _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Culture Sheet" <team at culturesheet.org> on 2009.01.06 at 12:24:46(18875) Brian, just a thought, don't really think it applies to this genus but you might be interested: +More in some families/genera it's common that A x B doesn't work, while B x A does. There are a few reasons, like barriers on the stigma, but one of them which is often overlooked is the pollen-tube length. As the pollen grain germinates it sends a pollen tube to the embryonic cells. In some species this distance is too far for the pollen of the other species so the cross is impossible in one way. The Araceae is somewhat special in this case because of the extremely short distance, but I would try to reverse the cross to rule this out. regards, Fred _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "mossytrail" <mossytrail at hctc.com> on 2009.01.07 at 00:12:26(18876) > It isn't that uncommon in other families for self fertile > plants to reject foreign pollen - not very smart from the > point of vies of maintaining diversity, but plants are not > really noted for their long-range planning. > Actually, it is smart for maintaining diversity. If an aroid accepted pollen from every congeneric species, pretty soon the genus would have just one species -- not very diverse. Species maintain their identities by rejecting the pollen of other species. Diversity within species is instead maintained by sharing pollen among different genotypes of the same species. Where a species DOES accept pollen from another species, this can actually put its survival in danger. In the April-June 2008 issue of _Madrono_ there is an article about this: a rare, endemic evening primrose, already endangered, is now further threatened by an escaped garden species -- they are hybridizing, and the endemic is thus at risk of losing its identity. Unless the hybridization can be stopped, the two species will soon become one -- a reduction in diversity. +More Some genera have different species with different chromosome numbers. If that is true in your case, you may not be able to get around the barrier. Jason Hernandez Naturalist-at-Large _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "mossytrail" <mossytrail at hctc.com> on 2009.01.07 at 00:34:35(18877) > I know this may open a box of worms, but I am curious if > these plants are said to evolve from one another then why > are these barricades even present? I can see this being > more difficult for other genus but for different species > it seems very odd. You would think more genus crosses > would be more frequent and not as rare as they seem to be > as well. Just my thoughts. > That is part of the speciation process. As long as two forms are still interfertile, someone can argue they are still the same species. Two subspecies become two species when they lose the ability to interbreed. As far as evolution, actually very little of it is the result of hybridization. Rather the opposite: two populations become isolated, and accumulate different mutations in the different locations. This acumulation of mutations eventually makes them different enough that they can no longer interbreed -- at which time we say they have speciated. +More Jason Hernandez Naturalist-at-Large _______________________________________________ Aroid-L mailing list Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2009.01.07 at 10:28:49(18878) Dear Brian, I was just kidding---do what makes you happy.  Concerning a ''lot of species being 'natural hybrids", I don`t believe that, but it will take someone more patient and knowledgable to explain that to you.   Maybe next Sept. you and Dr. Croat or John Banta can get into a discussion on that topic.  Till then, good luck with your work! The Best, Julius > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 02:39:05 -0500 > From: pugturd@alltel.net HTML +More > To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com > Subject: [Aroid-l] Aroid breeding problems > > It looks like the pollen of this plant is good on other plants in the > same genus but no pollen from the other species seems to work with it. I > am guessing I will have to back cross the hybrids back to the this plant > the father. > > Julius as for pure species aren't alot of them just ancient natural > hybrids? I have always loved the true species. The problem is some of > the best forms are hard for me to grow up north. So I am trying to make > them a little faster hardier and tougher. Adding color and other traits > is always a pluse. Don't worry Julius I am not messing with any of your > favorite genus groups (YET!) > > I know this may open a box of worms, but I am curious if these plants > are said to evolve from one another then why are these barricades even > present? I can see this being more difficult for other genus but for > different species it seems very odd. You would think more genus crosses > would be more frequent and not as rare as they seem to be as well. Just > my thoughts. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aroid-L mailing list > Aroid-L@www.gizmoworks.com > http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l --_054a3516-c1e5-415a-99b7-560f8512c37a_----==============69361185130515552=

Note: this is a very old post, so no reply function is available.