Hybrids?

From: "Julius Boos" <ju-bo at msn.com> on 2007.02.24 at 15:01:52(15336) Reply-To : Discussion of aroids Sent : Friday, February 23, 2007 6:34 PM To : aroid-l@gizmoworks.com (Discussion of aroids) Subject : Re: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa Leopoldina' I don`t believe that anyone denys that there are 'natural hybrids' in nature. BUT---'mother nature' usually makes these 'natural hybrids' a rare occurence, and in many cases a Biological dead-end. Think about a mule (donkey X horse). In other hybrids, there is no or limited fertility in the hybrid. The statement 'pollen goes wherever it may' is true in very few cases except wind-pollenated species, it MUST be transported from plant to plant (or animal to animal), and there are mecanisims to ensure in most cases that the pollen from one species goes to that species (distinct different odurs or shape/colors of blooms in plants, different behaviors, etc. in animals/birds). But yes, there are 'natural hybrids' that do sometimes occur, even in aroids! Julius +More Can anypne deny that in nature there may be some "natural hybrids"? Pollen goes wherever it may-- _ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "D. Christopher Rogers" <crogers at ecoanalysts.com> on 2007.02.24 at 17:58:48(15341) Howdy! I am not a botanist, but I am a professional zoologist and a taxonomist at that. In zoology, hybridizability is the defining character for genera; if the gametes from two species can form a zygote, whether that zygote develops into a sexually viable or inviable (sterile) adult, then the two species belong to the same genus. There are of course separate rules for parthenogenic organisms. Obviously this definition will not work for plants where, for example, in the orchids, hybrids between genera, tribes, and subfamilies occur, even though the plants are from opposite corners of the globe. But something that all taxonomists need to keep in mind is that unlike the species (or specific) designation, which is an exclusive concept, all other taxonomic categories (genus, tribe, subfamily, family, on up) are inclusive categories. If we keep emphasizing the differences between groups we run into the problem of putting each species in its own genus, each genus in its own family, and so on. At that point the taxonomy become meaningless. So, in nature there are natural hybrids. This means that there is gene flow within genera. There are also entities called stabilized hybrids. These are reproducing populations of hybrids that have a stabilized set of characters, and are capable of continued existence without input of new genetic material from either parent taxon. Every once in a while, I hear of a species that has been discovered to be in actuality a stabilized hybrid of two other taxa. But they are functioning independently of the two parent taxa. Stabilized hybrids typically appear not because the two species are overlapping in distribution, but because they very rarely meet. In someplace remote to both species, but rarely colonized by each, they have few mate choices, and often choose the congener. These resulting hybrids often have all the best characteristics of both parent taxa, maybe giving them the characteristics they need to survive in a peripheral habitat. This can be a source of speciation. I hope my ramblings are of some use, Christopher +More D. Christopher Rogers Invertebrate Ecologist/Taxonomist ((,///////////=====< EcoAnalysts, Inc. (530) 406-1178 166 Buckeye Street Woodland CA 95695 USA ? Invertebrate Taxonomy ? Invertebrate Ecological Studies ? Bioassessment and Study Design ? Endangered Invertebrate Species ? Zooplankton ? Periphyton/ Phytoplankton Moscow, ID ? Bozeman, MT ? Woodland, CA ? Neosho, MO ? Selinsgrove, PA www.ecoanalysts.com _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: don7T1 at webtv.net on 2007.02.24 at 19:45:23(15342) Julius tanks for the clarification (the ass and the horse) == a mule, however I also think of orchids where 4 distinct species will cross and produce viable seed. Cattleya+laliea+brassovola+epidendrum Don Hudson +More Have A Great Day !!! TakeCare... _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Peter Boyce" <botanist at malesiana.com> on 2007.02.24 at 23:32:39(15344) Curiously, while natural aroid hybrids seem to be not at all common in nature, Arum seems to be profligate, with the following confirmed (order of parents is pollen:seed): A. apulum x A. italicum ssp. italicum (Italy) A. creticum x A. idaeum (Crete) A. cylindraceum (syn. A. alpinum) x A. maculatum = Arum x sooi (first recorded for Hungary but present almost everywhere that the two species meet in Europe) A. concinnatum x A. cyrenaicum (Crete) A. idaeum x A. creticum (Crete) A. italicum ssp. italicum (also reported as ssp. neglectum) x A. maculatum (France) A. palaestinum x A. dioscorides (Israel) A. purpureospathum x A. concinnatum (Crete) What is most interesting is the number of hybrids occurring in Crete. Arisarum also produces a hybrid between A. vulgare x A. simorrhinum, the swarms of offsprinr of which have variously been used to describe a whole raft of ssp. and vars and haev been used to taxonomically merge the two parents under the name A. vulgare. In fact, the parents are very distinct. Here in Sarawak I know of at least two populations of Alocasia robusta x A. princeps; and one of A. reversa x A. ridleyi. Peter +More ----- Original Message ----- To: Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Hybrids? Reply-To : Discussion of aroids Sent : Friday, February 23, 2007 6:34 PM To : aroid-l@gizmoworks.com (Discussion of aroids) Subject : Re: [Aroid-l] Philodendron 'Santa Leopoldina' I don`t believe that anyone denys that there are 'natural hybrids' in nature. BUT---'mother nature' usually makes these 'natural hybrids' a rare occurence, and in many cases a Biological dead-end. Think about a mule (donkey X horse). In other hybrids, there is no or limited fertility in the hybrid. The statement 'pollen goes wherever it may' is true in very few cases except wind-pollenated species, it MUST be transported from plant to plant (or animal to animal), and there are mecanisims to ensure in most cases that the pollen from one species goes to that species (distinct different odurs or shape/colors of blooms in plants, different behaviors, etc. in animals/birds). But yes, there are 'natural hybrids' that do sometimes occur, even in aroids! Julius Can anypne deny that in nature there may be some "natural hybrids"? Pollen goes wherever it may-- _ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

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