Leaf fertilization - A.titanum 'ghost'

From: Baumfarn Webmaster webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2005.06.08 at 11:56:24(12982) A friend of me and I growed some A.titanum from seeds. Both of us have one pale (he) and one nearly pale (I) plant. Both plants are about to unfolding dear leafes now. But due to the (nearly) completely missing of any green pigmentation probably the photosynthesis wouldn't take effect. (I hope this is still english? ;-) ) +More How can we avoid that these plants are dying? My first guess, was fertilization with a fertilizer with low NPK but high trace elements (eg: ferric elements). But I think to get those over the root system, the plant would need a running photosynthesis. My 2nd thought was to do some direct leaf fertilization. Could this work? Had anyone ever tried to do leaf fertilization on Amorphs (or close related other aroids)? thanks Peter PS. What is latin for ghost? spiritus? Would be Amorphophallus titanum spiritus :-)) -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Baumfarne & Aronst?be: http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern (http://www.baumfarn.at) --------------------------------------------------- Amorphophallus network: http://www.amorphophallus.baumfarn.at/ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Baumfarn Webmaster webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2005.06.11 at 11:30:20(12988) Here are some pics of my white beauty: http://www.baumfarn.at/gal_Aro.php?treefernI Scroll to the right, there are 3 pics. +More greetings Peter --------------------------------------------------------------------------- treeferns & aroids: http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern (http://www.baumfarn.at) --------------------------------------------------- Amorphophallus network: http://www.amorphophallus.baumfarn.at/ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "Tropicals" Tropicals at SolutionsAnalysis.net> on 2005.06.11 at 20:41:55(12990) Outstanding specimen. Thank you for sharing. We offer no direct experience growing an albo form A. titanum but certainly hope you keep us posted on its height, size container and specific medium and environmental conditions under which is it growing. Kudo's to you; good growing! Christian and Bill AlterNative Solutions +More Your Tropical/Desert Plant Resource www.SolutionsAnalysis.net www.ProPer_Solutions.CyberWize.com Knock down the stress level and reduce your tax burden and / or book the best online vacation rates available! -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Baumfarn Webmaster Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 7:30 AM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Leaf fertilization - A.titanum 'ghost' Here are some pics of my white beauty: http://www.baumfarn.at/gal_Aro.php?treefernI Scroll to the right, there are 3 pics. greetings Peter --------------------------------------------------------------------------- treeferns & aroids: http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern (http://www.baumfarn.at) --------------------------------------------------- Amorphophallus network: http://www.amorphophallus.baumfarn.at/ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "David S." maui4me at charter.net> on 2005.06.12 at 06:08:06(12991) I see no evidence of chlorophyll. I don't know how it could survive very long without it unless grafted like some cacti are, but then what could you graft it on to? David S. +More ----- Original Message ----- To: "Discussion of aroids" Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Leaf fertilization - A.titanum 'ghost' > Here are some pics of my white beauty: > http://www.baumfarn.at/gal_Aro.php?treefernI > Scroll to the right, there are 3 pics. > > greetings > Peter > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > treeferns & aroids: http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern (http://www.baumfarn.at) > --------------------------------------------------- > Amorphophallus network: http://www.amorphophallus.baumfarn.at/ > _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "W. George Schmid" hostahill at bellsouth.net> on 2005.06.12 at 17:17:57(12993) Hi, The phenomenon of white plant tissue also occurs in other genera. In my experience with hostas, completely white plants (as your A. titanum) may survive one season but the lack of chlorophyll results in the hosta rhizome (or the A. tuber) not being able to store sufficient sugars for the next year's growth. As a consequence, the plants will decline and no longer be viable after a season or two or three. Usually, some hostas fight this condition and become viridescent, i.e., the leaves turn partially or all the way green later in the season (the time frame when sugars are stored in hostas) to make up for this lack of chlorophyll. In other cases the white leaves collapse and rot away and are replaced with green leaves. Some of these plants recover and live on by making the white-phase a temporary condition. I have a variegated Acer negundo that routinely sends out branches with all-white leaves. None of these branches has survived more than three seasons, unless they become viridescent, which happens occasionally. I have a large collection or amorphs and arisaemas, but have not experienced white forms so cannot comment on these aroids in particular. I would guess that large tubers with a large stored-up food supply may be able to survive for a time. Judging by my experience with other genera, the white form is either a lethal condition or will not survive in the long run. It would be interesting to see if this plant has enough food reserves to make an inflorescence. HTH, George W. George Schmid +More Hosta Hill - Tucker Georgia USA Zone 7a - 1188 feet AMSL 84-12'-30" West_33-51' North Outgoing e-mail virus checked by NAV ----- Original Message ----- To: "Discussion of aroids" Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 02:08 Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Leaf fertilization - A.titanum 'ghost' > I see no evidence of chlorophyll. I don't know how it could survive very > long without it unless grafted like some cacti are, but then what could you > graft it on to? > > David S. _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Baumfarn Webmaster webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2005.06.12 at 17:50:49(12994) Growed from seeds, vendor: www.samenladen.de, source: www.sumatraflora.com (only 2 turns out to be white from about 40 seeds) Height: 25 cm (surface earth to first branching) Container: 18 cm diameter Maximum leaf-to-leaf-tips: 16 cm diameter Medium: normal earth, with pretty much of perlit, bims sand, seramis (what's the name in english??) and some kind of long lasting fertilizer perls +More germination conditions: > 23?C (but never over 30?C) average was around 25-26?C, sometimes added additonal plant light, but I don't think it was of much value Current growing conditions: between 23-28?C, quite light but nearly never full sun, moving them every day from east window (morning) to west window (afternoon). greetings Peter Tropicals wrote: Outstanding specimen. Thank you for sharing. We offer no direct experience growing an albo form A. titanum but certainly hope you keep us posted on its height, size container and specific medium and environmental conditions under which is it growing. Kudo's to you; good growing! Christian and Bill AlterNative Solutions Your Tropical/Desert Plant Resource www.SolutionsAnalysis.net www.ProPer_Solutions.CyberWize.com Knock down the stress level and reduce your tax burden and / or book the best online vacation rates available! -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Baumfarn Webmaster Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 7:30 AM To: Discussion of aroids Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Leaf fertilization - A.titanum 'ghost' Here are some pics of my white beauty: http://www.baumfarn.at/gal_Aro.php?treefernI Scroll to the right, there are 3 pics. greetings Peter --------------------------------------------------------------------------- treeferns & aroids: http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern (http://www.baumfarn.at) --------------------------------------------------- Amorphophallus network: http://www.amorphophallus.baumfarn.at/ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- treeferns & aroids: http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern (http://www.baumfarn.at) --------------------------------------------------- Amorphophallus network: http://www.amorphophallus.baumfarn.at/ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Baumfarn Webmaster webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2005.06.12 at 21:45:38(12996) Hi, thanks for your input. >>It would be interesting to see if this plant has enough food reserves +More to make an inflorescence It is germinated from seeds, at this stage I will be happy if it can build a tuber until end of season. What size of tubers can I expect from an A.titanum for its 1st season? greetings Peter PS: I assume that fertilizing with honey wouldn't help? ;-D) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- treeferns & aroids: http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern (http://www.baumfarn.at) --------------------------------------------------- Amorphophallus network: http://www.amorphophallus.baumfarn.at/ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Steve Marak samarak at gizmoworks.com> on 2005.06.12 at 21:50:53(12997) My limited experience is also with other genera, and is exactly as George described - 1 or perhaps 2 seasons of decline and then disappearance. My very unscientific impression is that this happens more often with selfings, which would be completely unsurprising to me but is certainly not required. A batch of hemerocallis seeds sent to me long ago by Phil Mueller germinated almost 40% "albinos", the highest percentage I've ever seen. I had one variegated hemerocallis which developed the habit of putting up some completely white fans and some which displayed the "normal" variegation. I hoped this would enable it to grow very slowly and still look spectacular, and it did survive for 5 or 6 years, but it hasn't appeared this year and I fear the worst. The cactus & succulent people graft non-chlorophyllous plants, as David suggested, and now have quite a stable of them (which people seem to love or hate). In your case, as the leaf is transient, you'd actually probably want to graft a leaf with chlorophyll onto the stem to provide the tuber with food. Not only do I have no idea how you'd do this with just a leaf - is it even possible? - it would obviously not preserve the unusual appearance, and what leaf would you use? I have a desultory interest in this, enough to make me search the web occasionally and watch the mailing lists in case someone comes up with an easy way to keep these plants alive, but not enough to make me get out the big guns and try things myself. They seem to fascinate a lot of us, and there's been discussion on several lists about possible approaches - I seem to recall a particularly long-running discussion on the clivia list, and you might search those archives to see if anyone came up with an answer. Good luck, and please let us know if you are able to keep it going. Steve +More On Sun, 12 Jun 2005, W. George Schmid wrote: > Hi, The phenomenon of white plant tissue also occurs in other genera. In my > experience with hostas, completely white plants (as your A. titanum) may > survive one season but the lack of chlorophyll results in the hosta rhizome > (or the A. tuber) not being able to store sufficient sugars for the next > year's growth. As a consequence, the plants will decline and no longer be > viable after a season or two or three. Usually, some hostas fight this > condition and become viridescent, i.e., the leaves turn partially or all the > way green later in the season (the time frame when sugars are stored in > hostas) to make up for this lack of chlorophyll. In other cases the white > leaves collapse and rot away and are replaced with green leaves. Some of > these plants recover and live on by making the white-phase a temporary > condition. I have a variegated Acer negundo that routinely sends out > branches with all-white leaves. None of these branches has survived more > than three seasons, unless they become viridescent, which happens > occasionally. I have a large collection or amorphs and arisaemas, but have > not experienced white forms so cannot comment on these aroids in particular. > I would guess that large tubers with a large stored-up food supply may be > able to survive for a time. Judging by my experience with other genera, the > white form is either a lethal condition or will not survive in the long run. > It would be interesting to see if this plant has enough food reserves to > make an inflorescence. HTH, George > > W. George Schmid > Hosta Hill - Tucker Georgia USA > Zone 7a - 1188 feet AMSL > 84-12'-30" West_33-51' North > Outgoing e-mail virus checked by NAV > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David S." > To: "Discussion of aroids" > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 02:08 > Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Leaf fertilization - A.titanum 'ghost' > > > > I see no evidence of chlorophyll. I don't know how it could survive very > > long without it unless grafted like some cacti are, but then what could you > > graft it on to? > > > > David S. -- Steve Marak -- samarak@gizmoworks.com _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Baumfarn Webmaster webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2005.06.12 at 22:03:05(12998) Selflings?? Sorry; I'm just a native german speaker. And I know only halflings and seedlings, but selflings? Probably you mean self propagated plants? But as far as I know that is impossible for Amorphophallus, since the female flowers ripe before the stamens. +More As I noticed this plant was grown from seeds. If there isn't enough chlorophyl production to keep the plant alive, there wouldn't enough chlorophyl production to build a tuber neither. How can the plant even survive 2 seasons? Grafting the leaf? Don't sounds practicable to me. Did ever someone tried to graft tubers? eg: cutting two tubers in half, binding each half of the opposite together and hope for the best. I'm not into botanics, I don't know if his could even be marginally possible. greetings Peter --------------------------------------------------------------------------- treeferns & aroids: http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern (http://www.baumfarn.at) --------------------------------------------------- Amorphophallus network: http://www.amorphophallus.baumfarn.at/ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Ken Mosher ken at spatulacity.com> on 2005.06.12 at 23:53:12(12999) Since that titanum is a seedling I wouldn't expect it even to form a tuber. Where would it get the energy to grow one? Without chlorophyll how can it survive at all? +More In the C&S world, for instance, when a variegated haworthia occasionally produced a completely white offset, it is always left on the mother plant. Whenever they are removed and grown on their own, they don't take long to die. If it even lives until its first dormancy, or produces a second white leaf, I'd love someone to explain to me how that happened. If the owner is lucky it will produce a green leaf, but will there be any energy left in the seed to do that? It's interesting to hear about George's variegated maple that produces non-viable branches with all-white leaves. I would have guessed, if I'd seen it in a nursery, that the "healthy" parts of the plant would sustain the mutant branch. I wonder about the process that shuts down a non food producing branch. It's clearly beneficial to the rest of the tree to get rid of that branch. -Ken W. George Schmid wrote: Hi, The phenomenon of white plant tissue also occurs in other genera. In my experience with hostas, completely white plants (as your A. titanum) may survive one season but the lack of chlorophyll results in the hosta rhizome (or the A. tuber) not being able to store sufficient sugars for the next year's growth. As a consequence, the plants will decline and no longer be viable after a season or two or three. Usually, some hostas fight this condition and become viridescent, i.e., the leaves turn partially or all the way green later in the season (the time frame when sugars are stored in hostas) to make up for this lack of chlorophyll. In other cases the white leaves collapse and rot away and are replaced with green leaves. Some of these plants recover and live on by making the white-phase a temporary condition. I have a variegated Acer negundo that routinely sends out branches with all-white leaves. None of these branches has survived more than three seasons, unless they become viridescent, which happens occasionally. I have a large collection or amorphs and arisaemas, but have not experienced white forms so cannot comment on these aroids in particular. I would guess that large tubers with a large stored-up food supply may be able to survive for a time. Judging by my experience with other genera, the white form is either a lethal condition or will not survive in the long run. It would be interesting to see if this plant has enough food reserves to make an inflorescence. HTH, George W. George Schmid Hosta Hill - Tucker Georgia USA Zone 7a - 1188 feet AMSL 84-12'-30" West_33-51' North Outgoing e-mail virus checked by NAV ----- Original Message ----- To: "Discussion of aroids" Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 02:08 Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Leaf fertilization - A.titanum 'ghost' I see no evidence of chlorophyll. I don't know how it could survive very long without it unless grafted like some cacti are, but then what could you graft it on to? David S. _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: "W. George Schmid" hostahill at bellsouth.net> on 2005.06.13 at 17:02:59(13008) Somehow, Ken, this tree gets rid of all white branches in short order. The first season it usually loses the white leaves somewhat prematurely and does not replace them. The branch may sprout white leaves again the next season, but usually by the third season it is dry and dead. This tree is mature and about 20 ft tall and develops the all-white-leaved branches closest to the ground only. The whole thing is strange, as is comes and goes: Some years it has the white-leaved branches, others it does not. Seems like the tree "knows" which branches contribute to its survival and which do not. I am no tree expert (my chosen fields are limited areas of botany and taxonomy), but perhaps someone schooled in tree physiology can explain what is happening. George +More W. George Schmid Hosta Hill - Tucker Georgia USA Zone 7a - 1188 feet AMSL 84-12'-30" West_33-51' North Outgoing e-mail virus checked by NAV ----- Original Message ----- To: "Discussion of aroids" Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 19:53 Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Leaf fertilization - A.titanum 'ghost' > It's interesting to hear about George's variegated maple that produces > non-viable branches with all-white leaves. I would have guessed, if I'd > seen it in a nursery, that the "healthy" parts of the plant would sustain > the mutant branch. I wonder about the process that shuts down a non food > producing branch. It's clearly beneficial to the rest of the tree to get > rid of that branch. > > -Ken _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Baumfarn Webmaster webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2005.06.13 at 21:49:12(13011) Update: two of the five leaflets are arched and pointing downward. But the leaflets don't feel limp in any case. Stiff and elastic like they should. PS: I know this is far away from a correct botanic discription ;-) greetings +More Peter --------------------------------------------------------------------------- treeferns & aroids: http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern (http://www.baumfarn.at) --------------------------------------------------- Amorphophallus network: http://www.amorphophallus.baumfarn.at/ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

From: Baumfarn Webmaster webmaster at baumfarn.at> on 2005.07.07 at 23:06:06(13150) Three of the leaf tips are getting brown. Could this happend to a normal (green) A.titanum too? Could it be something like too much water, too much/less sunlight? Something other? Or is this the beginning of the end due to the lack of chlorphyl? greetings +More Peter --------------------------------------------------------------------------- treeferns & aroids: http://www.baumfarn.at/treefern (http://www.baumfarn.at) --------------------------------------------------- Amorphophallus network: http://www.amorphophallus.baumfarn.at/ _______________________________________________ Aroid-l mailing list Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

Note: this is a very old post, so no reply function is available.