How big is big enough? and how tall do they get?

From: StroWi at t-online.de (StroWi) on 2002.04.14 at 16:37:43(8543) Randy, I think this is something most Amorphophallus growers are interested in. The list you propose is a very good idea! I would like to take the chance to add the question how tall they get at a definite tuber size (lets say at good light and growing conditions): Would any one know, if there is a close correlation between tuber size and PETIOLE HIGHT in Amorphophallus titanum? If someone has figures or even an idea, I would be very intersted. (It could tell me when to built a higher greenhouse for my A.t. or do something different; see below) I ask this in the same context as I asked for the effect of growth retardants on the petiole hight of A.t. or other big aroids with a single leaf some time ago. I did not get a response when I posted my question, but I think it should work, since growth retardants generally inhibit cell elongation to a certain extent. (Normally they are used in horticulture to shorten internode length in ornamentals like Poinsettias and others) Looking forward to any comment! Bernhard. +More Dollbergen, Germany approx. zone 6/7 "Randall M. Story" schrieb: > Hi, > > I'm curious if there is any interest in starting a discussion or compiling a > list as to what constitutes "blooming size" for various species. I'm > thinking primarily of Amorphophallus and related stinky tuberous aroids, > although it need not be limited to these. > > I realize that estimates depend on one's growing conditions, the particular > cultivar, luck, etc. However even SOME guess as to when a particular plant > "might" bloom, with a size range or "ballpark" number would be useful, to me > at least. It would be nice to know whether a particular tuber has a chance > of blooming at 1 inch or 4 inches or not till 8 inches in diameter! > > This information seems particularly hard to find, even more so than > estimates of cold hardiness. > > Do people think this is a good idea? If there is any interest, people could > send me their experiences and if I get enough responses I could post a list > here. I'm guessing that even a short list of the most commonly available > species could be useful to a lot of us. > > A specific question I have at the moment: how big does an A. bulbifer tuber > have to be to have some chance of blooming? > > Thanks, > > Randy Story >

From: "Ronald h Kessler" ronlene at worldnet.att.net> on 2002.04.15 at 02:18:57(8549) A list is a good idea. If it contained photos of the petiole and the leaf of all of the species, it would be a GREAT idea. Ron +More ----- Original Message ----- From: StroWi To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 12:37 PM Subject: Re: How big is big enough? and how tall do they get? Randy, I think this is something most Amorphophallus growers are interested in. The list you propose is a very good idea! I would like to take the chance to add the question how tall they get at a definite tuber size (lets say at good light and growing conditions): Would any one know, if there is a close correlation between tuber size and PETIOLE HIGHT in Amorphophallus titanum? If someone has figures or even an idea, I would be very intersted. (It could tell me when to built a higher greenhouse for my A.t. or do something different; see below) I ask this in the same context as I asked for the effect of growth retardants on the petiole hight of A.t. or other big aroids with a single leaf some time ago. I did not get a response when I posted my question, but I think it should work, since growth retardants generally inhibit cell elongation to a certain extent. (Normally they are used in horticulture to shorten internode length in ornamentals like Poinsettias and others) Looking forward to any comment! Bernhard. Dollbergen, Germany approx. zone 6/7 "Randall M. Story" schrieb: > Hi, > > I'm curious if there is any interest in starting a discussion or compiling a > list as to what constitutes "blooming size" for various species. I'm > thinking primarily of Amorphophallus and related stinky tuberous aroids, > although it need not be limited to these. > > I realize that estimates depend on one's growing conditions, the particular > cultivar, luck, etc. However even SOME guess as to when a particular plant > "might" bloom, with a size range or "ballpark" number would be useful, to me > at least. It would be nice to know whether a particular tuber has a chance > of blooming at 1 inch or 4 inches or not till 8 inches in diameter! > > This information seems particularly hard to find, even more so than > estimates of cold hardiness. > > Do people think this is a good idea? If there is any interest, people could > send me their experiences and if I get enough responses I could post a list > here. I'm guessing that even a short list of the most commonly available > species could be useful to a lot of us. > > A specific question I have at the moment: how big does an A. bulbifer tuber > have to be to have some chance of blooming? > > Thanks, > > Randy Story >

From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at msn.com> on 2002.04.15 at 02:50:46(8550) ----- Original Message ----- From: StroWi To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 12:37 PM Subject: Re: How big is big enough? and how tall do they get? Dear Bernhard and randy, This is going to be a MOST difficult one to determine! Aroids are strange plants, and some will bloom at a VERY early age/size, even the giant species! There are two pages linked to the MOBOT aroid pages detailing two different A. titanum`s that bloomed at a very small tuber size, and several other species (A. konjac among them) have also bloomed when small/young. Cyrtosperma cuspidispathum has been recorded blooming when only 6 " tall, this plant can and will grow to over 3 m tall! Perhaps a big part of the joy of growing these plants is in the 'surprise' of never knowing for sure exactly when one will produce a bloom!! This brings me to once more mention something that has not been well recorded for most aroids, which is the production of inflorsences by small or weak plants that only contribute pollen to the reproductive 'chain'/gene pool. This is well recorded in the genus Arisaema, where the 'normal' unisexual spadices (male above female separate floral zones) are modified, the female zone is lacking in the flowers borne by smaller, weaker plants, and these can only contribute pollen to the gene pool, as these small plants do not have the tuber size/stored 'energy' to be able to sustain an infructesence through it`s lengthy development. I strongly believe that this occurs (does anyone have records or references to this??) in genera that have bisexual spadices such as Anthurium and Urospatha, Anaphyllopsis ond others. A small, weak plant will bloom, but will only produce pollen. If fertilized the fruit can and will not develop as the smaller weaker plant can not sustain a developing infructesence. Anyway, good luck with your quest for information on blooming size, and the use of growth retardant on giant species of Amorphophallus, though this aspect baffles me, I thought that the whole 'point' of obtaining a giant species was for it to grow TALL/BIG! Best Wishes, Julius +More >>Randy, I think this is something most Amorphophallus growers are interested in. The list you propose is a very good idea! I would like to take the chance to add the question how tall they get at a definite tuber size (lets say at good light and growing conditions): Would any one know, if there is a close correlation between tuber size and PETIOLE HIGHT in Amorphophallus titanum? If someone has figures or even an idea, I would be very intersted. (It could tell me when to built a higher greenhouse for my A.t. or do something different; see below) I ask this in the same context as I asked for the effect of growth retardants on the petiole hight of A.t. or other big aroids with a single leaf some time ago. I did not get a response when I posted my question, but I think it should work, since growth retardants generally inhibit cell elongation to a certain extent. (Normally they are used in horticulture to shorten internode length in ornamentals like Poinsettias and others) Looking forward to any comment! Bernhard. Dollbergen, Germany approx. zone 6/7 "Randall M. Story" schrieb: > Hi, > > I'm curious if there is any interest in starting a discussion or compiling a > list as to what constitutes "blooming size" for various species. I'm > thinking primarily of Amorphophallus and related stinky tuberous aroids, > although it need not be limited to these. > > I realize that estimates depend on one's growing conditions, the particular > cultivar, luck, etc. However even SOME guess as to when a particular plant > "might" bloom, with a size range or "ballpark" number would be useful, to me > at least. It would be nice to know whether a particular tuber has a chance > of blooming at 1 inch or 4 inches or not till 8 inches in diameter! > > This information seems particularly hard to find, even more so than > estimates of cold hardiness. > > Do people think this is a good idea? If there is any interest, people could > send me their experiences and if I get enough responses I could post a list > here. I'm guessing that even a short list of the most commonly available > species could be useful to a lot of us. > > A specific question I have at the moment: how big does an A. bulbifer tuber > have to be to have some chance of blooming? > > Thanks, > > Randy Story >

From: StroWi at t-online.de (StroWi) on 2002.04.15 at 16:38:12(8557) Dear Julius, thanks for your interesting points on flowering size and pollen production of weak plants. "Julius Boos" schrieb: > Dear Bernhard and randy, .... +More > Anyway, good luck with your quest for information on blooming size, and the use of growth > retardant on giant species of Amorphophallus, though this aspect baffles me, I thought that > the whole 'point' of obtaining a giant species was for it to grow TALL/BIG! Of course this is the "point".... And yes, I can imagine that your are puzzled by my intention to keep the tall ones or in my case "one" short. But living in cold Germany (approx. zone 6/7) without a big greenhouse, but with an Amorph. titanum, I have to think about future times (if I ever will manage to grow a titanum to a "critical" hight). The options I have are not many: - Giving away the plant after raising it to a petiole hihgt of about 2 m (I have a "wintergarden" of 2,3 m hight)? That would be a pitty... - Building a big greenhouse? Unfortunately beyond my possibilities.... - Keeping it and forcing it to remain short in some way? And the latter should be possible with growth retardants. Since I have found no reference on the effect of growth retardants on the petiole lenght of plants, I just sent out my question to the list. I think it should work, since for instance in Poinsettias not only internodes are shortened, but also the bract diameter is reduced by higher concentrations of growth retardants (Petiole length was not mentionend in the publication). Furthermore growth retardants are used also in tissue culture to grow plants/multiple shoot clusters in a very compact habitus. Since there is no response (yet) from the aroid-L, it seem that no one has tried growth retardants on Amorphs. An answer to my second question regarding the correlation between tuber size and petiole hight in Amorph. titanum could indicate when to start with the application of growth retardants. I still hope that someone has data on this, i.e. data on tuber weight and the hight of the petiole grown from this tuber. But maybe the number of titanums grown in botanical gardens etc, is too small to provide data sufficient for a statistical anylysis. However, even some observations might give an indication. A last point on using growth retardants on the mentioned species would be that I hope that a treated plant would still increase its tuber size, even when its petiole is kept short. It might be possible to grow it to blooming size under home conditions. Thanks for attention and still looking forward to any comment. Good growing, Bernhard. Dollbergen, Germany approx. zone 6/7

From: "Randall M. Story" story at caltech.edu> on 2002.04.15 at 16:42:53(8560) Title: Re: How big is big enough? and how tall do they get? Julius, I agree that the fact that blooming is unpredictable can make it all the more exciting. Unfortunately, most of us have finite financial resources, space and patience. Let me throw out a hypothetical example. Suppose someone is interested in just seeing one, any one of these amazing plants bloom. They have the opportunity to buy a 4 inch (10 cm) diameter tuber of only one of the following: Amorphophallus paeoniifolius, A. bulbifer, A. konjac, A. titanum, Dracunculus vulgaris, Helicodiceros muscivorus and Sauromatum (Typhonium) venosum. Which should they buy at this size to be mostly likely to see a bloom? Now suppose Helicodiceros and A. paeoniifolius are by far their favorite species--how does this change things? Are there people on this list who could quickly answer this question? Yes. Are there also people on this list who don't know yet would like to know? I'm guessing yes. Is it easy to find such information online, in books, etc.? Not at all. Shouldn't that be exactly the sort of resource that this list is about? Trial and error can be very frustrating--and expensive. I find that people (we scientists in particular) are often reluctant to answer such questions because there is no exact answer. Yet however much we might have to guess, approximate, relate personal experiences, etc., there are people on a list like this who have lots of wisdom to share! Incomplete knowledge is better than nothing at all. Back to your example of a small A. titanum blooming (see postings by Kathy Upton, U. of Missouri, 1998). Wasn't this amazing in part BECAUSE this species has been observed to usually bloom at a much larger size? If nobody knew the typical size of an A. titanum at blooming would people have cared enough to ask why? That's why I think there is a need to hear the anecdotal stories, guesses, approximations, etc. I'll broaden my original request to encourage the curious (many of whom read the list, but never post anything) to either post or send me a list of species they are curious about. I'll see if I can quiz the experts about these and/or post a list here to see if we get a response. Sorry to be so long-winded here. However I think this is a pretty common and fundamental question, of interest to a lot of people, for which there is very, very little information out there. Randy +More ---------- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Subject: Re: How big is big enough? and how tall do they get? Date: Sun, Apr 14, 2002, 7:50 PM ----- Original Message ----- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 12:37 PM Subject: Re: How big is big enough? and how tall do they get? Dear Bernhard and randy, This is going to be a MOST difficult one to determine! Aroids are strange plants, and some will bloom at a VERY early age/size, even the giant species! There are two pages linked to the MOBOT aroid pages detailing two different A. titanum`s that bloomed at a very small tuber size, and several other species (A. konjac among them) have also bloomed when small/young. Cyrtosperma cuspidispathum has been recorded blooming when only 6 " tall, this plant can and will grow to over 3 m tall! Perhaps a big part of the joy of growing these plants is in the 'surprise' of never knowing for sure exactly when one will produce a bloom!! This brings me to once more mention something that has not been well recorded for most aroids, which is the production of inflorsences by small or weak plants that only contribute pollen to the reproductive 'chain'/gene pool. This is well recorded in the genus Arisaema, where the 'normal' unisexual spadices (male above female separate floral zones) are modified, the female zone is lacking in the flowers borne by smaller, weaker plants, and these can only contribute pollen to the gene pool, as these small plants do not have the tuber size/stored 'energy' to be able to sustain an infructesence through it`s lengthy development. I strongly believe that this occurs (does anyone have records or references to this??) in genera that have bisexual spadices such as Anthurium and Urospatha, Anaphyllopsis ond others. A small, weak plant will bloom, but will only produce pollen. If fertilized the fruit can and will not develop as the smaller weaker plant can not sustain a d eveloping infructesence. Anyway, good luck with your quest for information on blooming size, and the use of growth retardant on giant species of Amorphophallus, though this aspect baffles me, I thought that the whole 'point' of obtaining a giant species was for it to grow TALL/BIG! Best Wishes, Julius

From: StellrJ at aol.com on 2002.04.16 at 19:40:40(8570) In a message dated 04/15/2002 9:43:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, story@caltech.edu writes: I find that people (we scientists in particular) are often reluctant to answer such questions because there is no exact answer. Yet however much we might have to guess, approximate, relate personal experiences, etc., there are people on a list like this who have lots of wisdom to share! Incomplete knowledge is better than nothing at all. I can certainly agree with that. That is actually my one biggest frustration when I begin researching this or that plant species: it is nearly impossible to find background information. If it is a commercially grown species, one can find lots of commercial sources for it, but as for useful data, forget it. That is why I decided to submit my observations to Aroideana, even though they were only three days' worth, and even though my pollinator specimens were in such bad condition.

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