One Last Comment

From: Ted.Held at hstna.com on 2001.11.07 at 16:16:44(7771) I knew when this started that my comment would touch a nerve among the more ideological among the list members. I guess I am just an optimist about the world. Throughout the history of life (as we know it currently) there have been some pretty remarkable cataclysms where the number of species have been reduced dramatically by all estimates. It is probably the case that at any given "stable" time that a large fraction of the extant species exist in a rather precarious situation. Something comes along and shakes things up (and I suppose this could be construed as "habitat loss" except that as that phrase is usually used in today's parlance it means the whole "parking lot" business - not "natural" climate changes, vulcanization, meteor strikes, ice ages, etc.) and a host of the more specialized species get the rug pulled out from under them. In fact, if the "trajectory" of all the species present at any one time could be known and plotted, one would find that some are on the ascendency, vigorous, robust, while others are in decline, weak and prone to succumb to shocks of various sorts. Naturally, some of the weak species are really cool from the parachial human perspective. A lot of the coolest plants that this list likes are in that category. But from the standpoint of the history of the world, whether people like a particular life form does not matter very much. To be sure, people are now able to intervene in evolution in both good ways and bad. We can make parking lots and we can artificially propagate cool plants and animals and keep them going. From the comments I read about the Philodendron spiritus-sancti it is not clear why it is such a rare plant. Maybe it is because some preferred habitat is now a parking lot. Maybe it is because the plant was being overwhelmed by more successful species and is hanging naturally on the edge of extinction. Someone brought up the Franklinia issue a day or so ago.The reason Franklinia was hanging by a thread when rescued had nothing to do with loss of habitat then. There is no lack of habitat for Franklinia to be reintroduced into the "wild" today. The point is that species extinction is a really old thing and that for the vast majority of extinctions human parking lot building had absolutely no role. That this is happening today is not a valid opposing argument. I will now be silent on this topic unless people want to write me off-list. ted.held@hstna.com

From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at email.msn.com> on 2001.11.08 at 00:57:27(7780) Dear Ted, I am truly sorry that you have decided not to continue this discussion on our puplic forum---I now see that you are NOT aware of the situation reguarding the 'why' of the rarity of the plant (and MANY other plants and animals, insects, etc.) in the area of Brazil where it is found, and at one time was NOT endangered, so will try to fill you in (perhaps Eduardo can 'jump in' and lend a hand with more accurate facts, I am NOT completely certain about the exact area involved, the exact 'why' of the land clearing, etc.) on some information---I will also comment on a few of your statements after each para. +More >>Something comes along and shakes things up (and I suppose this could be construed as "habitat loss" except that as that phrase is usually used in today's parlance it means the whole "parking lot" business - not "natural" climate changes, vulcanization, meteor strikes, ice ages, etc.) and a host of the more specialized species get the rug pulled out from under them. In fact, if the "trajectory" of all the species present at any one time could be known and plotted, one would find that some are on the ascendency, vigorous, robust, while others are in decline, weak and prone to succumb to shocks of various sorts. Naturally, some of the weak species are really cool from the parachial human perspective. A lot of the coolest plants that this list likes are in that category. But from the standpoint of the history of the world, whether people like a particular life form does not matter very much.<< Ted, is there any OTHER 'something' you can share with us that in recorded history has 'shook things up' and caused the extincytion of life forms BESIDE man and his machines, etc.?? The 'host of species' that have been affected and made to go extinct in recorded history and a little before recorded history have all been directly atributed to man`s activities---paleo man is now thought to have wiped out ALL the many species of Moa (giant and not-so-giant ostrich-like birds ) of New Zealand which resulted in the extinction of the giant falcon that was their controlling predator---- imagine, a falcon large enough and capable of killing a moa, the macro-fauna of Australia, the macro-fauna of the Americas, (all camels, horses, mastodons and mammoths, giant ground sloths, etc.), the elephant birds of Madascar, etc. MUCH more recently the African black rhino has been reduced in only about 15 years to 1/10 OR LESS of it`s previous population size and is in grave danger of extinction, I guess by your logic it really needs some QUICK lessons in evolving or adaptiong to high power rifle bullets, and also to evolve the immeadiate loss of it`s horns?? But I degress---you NEED to know that the reason that the Philodendron in question is in BIG trouble is because of the clearing by man of NEARLY all of the jungle along Brazil`s East coast, followed by perhaps some collecting of the relict population, doomed anyway (unless WE help them) because even the pollenating scrab beetles can no longer exist in the tiny remenants and scraps of forest that are left. Surely you will not consider that THIS is a natural occurence that the plant would not or could not 'adapt' to??? Perhaps NOW you may understand my 'pave paradise' reference, as for all intents and purposes man HAS made a giant parking lot out of what used to be forest in E. Brazil! >>To be sure, people are now able to intervene in evolution in both good ways and bad. We can make parking lots and we can artificially propagate cool plants and animals and keep them going. From the comments I read about the Philodendron spiritus-sancti it is not clear why it is such a rare plant.<< See above. This plant is rare because MAN wiped out the jungle and ALL the plants that used to grow there !!!!! >>Maybe it is because some preferred habitat is now a parking lot. Maybe it is because the plant was being overwhelmed by more successful species and is hanging naturally on the edge of extinction. Someone brought up the Franklinia issue a day or so ago.The reason Franklinia was hanging by a thread when rescued had nothing to do with loss of habitat then. There is no lack of habitat for Franklinia to be reintroduced into the "wild" today.<< In the case of the Philodendron, it is the PARKING LOT syndrome, and WE can do something about it. >>The point is that species extinction is a really old thing and that for the vast majority of extinctions human parking lot building had absolutely no role. That this is happening today is not a valid opposing argument.<< Mass extinctions happened over geologic time, BUT most extinctions that have taken place since recorded history HAVE been because of man`s abuse of habitat! This is a fact, and I would LOVE to hear your opinion on this. >>I will now be silent on this topic unless people want to write me off-list.<< Come on Ted, this is so much fun, and all can learn a lot from it! Write an answer! Julius ju-bo@msn.com ted.held@hstna.com

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