Missing Raphides

From: Ted.Held at hstna.com on 2001.07.06 at 04:48:54(6961) I read Deni Bown's chapter "Acids and Crystals" with rapt attention [Aroids, 2nd Edition, Deni Bown, Timber Press, 2000]. I saw the illustration of dumbcane raphides on page 279 and resolved to photograph them with a scanning electron microscope. I had a handy dumbcane (looks like the variety of D. seguine labelled "Candida" in Plate 40 from that book) and I cut a stem and caught some of the sap from the wound. When the sap was dry I looked at it under the electron microscope. There are numerous polygonal structures (crystals?) about 1 micron in size. But these are blunt, not at all like the sharp needles I had hoped to see. I found no evidence of anything like the raphides described in the book. She says raphides should be about 150 to 300 microns in length and 8 to 15 microns in diameter. So I have plenty of resolution to see something that size. Does anyone know what I did wrong? If you wish to see the picture I made of the dried dumbcane juice you can contact me directly. I will e-mail you the picture. The file is about 1.25 megs and is in black and white. It is of interest even if there are no raphides. ted.held@hstna.com

From: Ted.Held at hstna.com on 2001.07.22 at 15:01:17(7076) Maybe I should re-cast this query. Has anybody on this list ever seen a raphide? If so, how? Perhaps they are mythological. Ted +More aroid-l@mobot.org on 07/06/2001 12:48:55 AM Please respond to aroid-l@mobot.org To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L cc: Subject: Missing Raphides I read Deni Bown's chapter "Acids and Crystals" with rapt attention [Aroids, 2nd Edition, Deni Bown, Timber Press, 2000]. I saw the illustration of dumbcane raphides on page 279 and resolved to photograph them with a scanning electron microscope. I had a handy dumbcane (looks like the variety of D. seguine labelled "Candida" in Plate 40 from that book) and I cut a stem and caught some of the sap from the wound. When the sap was dry I looked at it under the electron microscope. There are numerous polygonal structures (crystals?) about 1 micron in size. But these are blunt, not at all like the sharp needles I had hoped to see. I found no evidence of anything like the raphides described in the book. She says raphides should be about 150 to 300 microns in length and 8 to 15 microns in diameter. So I have plenty of resolution to see something that size. Does anyone know what I did wrong? If you wish to see the picture I made of the dried dumbcane juice you can contact me directly. I will e-mail you the picture. The file is about 1.25 megs and is in black and white. It is of interest even if there are no raphides. ted.held@hstna.com

From: Durightmm at aol.com on 2001.07.22 at 22:34:24(7085) Have you ever seen a BROMELIAD regelia   (Neoregelia)  J

From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at email.msn.com> on 2001.07.22 at 22:34:35(7086) >>Maybe I should re-cast this query. Has anybody on this list ever seen a raphide? If so, how? Perhaps they are mythological. Ted<< +More Dear Ted, I can understand your frustration---maybe the Dieffenbachia that you used was a hybrid with less 'potency'---you may want to check out the following two articles in back issues of Aroideana, both show photos of these structures--- a) "The remarkable shooting Idioblasts" by Father Eugene Middendorf, Bio. Sciences Dept., Quincy College, Quincy, Ill. 62301 in Aroideana Vol.6, No. 1. I believe that Deni Bown`s illus. were done based on the photos in this article, which also gives directions on how to obtain and view this mech. microscopically. b) "A possible defence mechanism in Scindapsis latifolius (Araceae: Monsteroideae)" in Aroideana Vol. 16--- I could not find my copy of Vol. 16, so can not give any further details on this article, but remember that it had a photo of the raphides as they were 'shot' out of the plant while it was being prepared as a herb. specimen sheet. Good luck. Sincerely, Julius Boos WPB, FLORIDA aroid-l@mobot.org on 07/06/2001 12:48:55 AM Please respond to aroid-l@mobot.org To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L cc: Subject: Missing Raphides I read Deni Bown's chapter "Acids and Crystals" with rapt attention [Aroids, 2nd Edition, Deni Bown, Timber Press, 2000]. I saw the illustration of dumbcane raphides on page 279 and resolved to photograph them with a scanning electron microscope. I had a handy dumbcane (looks like the variety of D. seguine labelled "Candida" in Plate 40 from that book) and I cut a stem and caught some of the sap from the wound. When the sap was dry I looked at it under the electron microscope. There are numerous polygonal structures (crystals?) about 1 micron in size. But these are blunt, not at all like the sharp needles I had hoped to see. I found no evidence of anything like the raphides described in the book. She says raphides should be about 150 to 300 microns in length and 8 to 15 microns in diameter. So I have plenty of resolution to see something that size. Does anyone know what I did wrong? If you wish to see the picture I made of the dried dumbcane juice you can contact me directly. I will e-mail you the picture. The file is about 1.25 megs and is in black and white. It is of interest even if there are no raphides. ted.held@hstna.com

From: "Deni Bown" deni at yaxhampark.co.uk> on 2001.07.23 at 13:39:18(7091) Ted, The photos of the Dieffenbachia raphides were taken as a favor by a medical scientist friend at the University of Calgary using (if I remember correctly) a scanning electron microscope and fresh (not dried) leaf tissues from a houseplant in his office. It's a long time ago now and I doubt very much if he would remember but I could try to find out more if you like. What exactly would you like me to ask him? Deni Bown +More -----Original Message----- Boos Sent: 22 July 2001 23:35 To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Subject: Re: Missing Raphides -----Original Message----- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Date: Sunday, July 22, 2001 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Missing Raphides >>Maybe I should re-cast this query. Has anybody on this list ever seen a raphide? If so, how? Perhaps they are mythological. Ted<< Dear Ted, I can understand your frustration---maybe the Dieffenbachia that you used was a hybrid with less 'potency'---you may want to check out the following two articles in back issues of Aroideana, both show photos of these structures--- a) "The remarkable shooting Idioblasts" by Father Eugene Middendorf, Bio. Sciences Dept., Quincy College, Quincy, Ill. 62301 in Aroideana Vol.6, No. 1. I believe that Deni Bown`s illus. were done based on the photos in this article, which also gives directions on how to obtain and view this mech. microscopically. b) "A possible defence mechanism in Scindapsis latifolius (Araceae: Monsteroideae)" in Aroideana Vol. 16--- I could not find my copy of Vol. 16, so can not give any further details on this article, but remember that it had a photo of the raphides as they were 'shot' out of the plant while it was being prepared as a herb. specimen sheet. Good luck. Sincerely, Julius Boos WPB, FLORIDA aroid-l@mobot.org on 07/06/2001 12:48:55 AM Please respond to aroid-l@mobot.org To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L cc: Subject: Missing Raphides I read Deni Bown's chapter "Acids and Crystals" with rapt attention [Aroids, 2nd Edition, Deni Bown, Timber Press, 2000]. I saw the illustration of dumbcane raphides on page 279 and resolved to photograph them with a scanning electron microscope. I had a handy dumbcane (looks like the variety of D. seguine labelled "Candida" in Plate 40 from that book) and I cut a stem and caught some of the sap from the wound. When the sap was dry I looked at it under the electron microscope. There are numerous polygonal structures (crystals?) about 1 micron in size. But these are blunt, not at all like the sharp needles I had hoped to see. I found no evidence of anything like the raphides described in the book. She says raphides should be about 150 to 300 microns in length and 8 to 15 microns in diameter. So I have plenty of resolution to see something that size. Does anyone know what I did wrong? If you wish to see the picture I made of the dried dumbcane juice you can contact me directly. I will e-mail you the picture. The file is about 1.25 megs and is in black and white. It is of interest even if there are no raphides. ted.held@hstna.com

From: Ted.Held at hstna.com on 2001.07.23 at 18:11:44(7093) I would guess that he would have had to dry his sample before running any electron microscope picture. I just thought that seeing raphides under any type of microscope would be a simple matter. Now, my sample came from a stem. Maybe they only exist in leaf tissue? From the descriptions, it would seem like they must surely have hard skins or casings if not mineralized shells. If the outer parts are soft and perishable, would they not be useless at causing lacerations and penetrations? And the size should be big enough to see with a simple hand lens. I would expect them to be rather numerous and easy to get from a radical stem cutting. Maybe raphides are not characteristic of all dumbcanes. Maybe not all dumbcanes are hazardous to gardeners or small children? I had hoped that raphides would have hard, perhaps complex surface structures, akin to diatoms. An electron microscope picture might be quite beautiful. Maybe different species would have different types of raphides and that raphide morphology might be useful for species determinations. Just some thoughts. I am only an amateur here. Is there an easy way to get copies of back articles in Aroideana as Julius Boos helpfully suggested? +More I will do a microtome slice of my specimen as Matyas suggested and report back. I thought that the raphides should have been released with the sap, however. But maybe you have to masticate the flesh to encounter them. ted.held@hstna.com aroid-l@mobot.org on 07/23/2001 09:39:20 AM Please respond to aroid-l@mobot.org To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L cc: Subject: RE: Missing Raphides Ted, The photos of the Dieffenbachia raphides were taken as a favor by a medical scientist friend at the University of Calgary using (if I remember correctly) a scanning electron microscope and fresh (not dried) leaf tissues from a houseplant in his office. It's a long time ago now and I doubt very much if he would remember but I could try to find out more if you like. What exactly would you like me to ask him? Deni Bown -----Original Message----- Boos Sent: 22 July 2001 23:35 To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Subject: Re: Missing Raphides -----Original Message----- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Date: Sunday, July 22, 2001 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Missing Raphides >>Maybe I should re-cast this query. Has anybody on this list ever seen a raphide? If so, how? Perhaps they are mythological. Ted<< Dear Ted, I can understand your frustration---maybe the Dieffenbachia that you used was a hybrid with less 'potency'---you may want to check out the following two articles in back issues of Aroideana, both show photos of these structures--- a) "The remarkable shooting Idioblasts" by Father Eugene Middendorf, Bio. Sciences Dept., Quincy College, Quincy, Ill. 62301 in Aroideana Vol.6, No. 1. I believe that Deni Bown`s illus. were done based on the photos in this article, which also gives directions on how to obtain and view this mech. microscopically. b) "A possible defence mechanism in Scindapsis latifolius (Araceae: Monsteroideae)" in Aroideana Vol. 16--- I could not find my copy of Vol. 16, so can not give any further details on this article, but remember that it had a photo of the raphides as they were 'shot' out of the plant while it was being prepared as a herb. specimen sheet. Good luck. Sincerely, Julius Boos WPB, FLORIDA aroid-l@mobot.org on 07/06/2001 12:48:55 AM Please respond to aroid-l@mobot.org To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L cc: Subject: Missing Raphides I read Deni Bown's chapter "Acids and Crystals" with rapt attention [Aroids, 2nd Edition, Deni Bown, Timber Press, 2000]. I saw the illustration of dumbcane raphides on page 279 and resolved to photograph them with a scanning electron microscope. I had a handy dumbcane (looks like the variety of D. seguine labelled "Candida" in Plate 40 from that book) and I cut a stem and caught some of the sap from the wound. When the sap was dry I looked at it under the electron microscope. There are numerous polygonal structures (crystals?) about 1 micron in size. But these are blunt, not at all like the sharp needles I had hoped to see. I found no evidence of anything like the raphides described in the book. She says raphides should be about 150 to 300 microns in length and 8 to 15 microns in diameter. So I have plenty of resolution to see something that size. Does anyone know what I did wrong? If you wish to see the picture I made of the dried dumbcane juice you can contact me directly. I will e-mail you the picture. The file is about 1.25 megs and is in black and white. It is of interest even if there are no raphides. ted.held@hstna.com

From: "Don Burns"donburns at macconnect.com> on 2001.07.23 at 18:42:45(7094) >I would guess that he would have had to dry his sample before running any >electron microscope picture. I just thought that seeing raphides under any >type of microscope would be a simple matter. Now, my sample came from a >stem. Maybe they only exist in leaf tissue? +More ------------clip-------------- Ted, My experience with the raphides has been courtesy of the larger Philodendrons. One in particular is P. selloum which is a giant we use frequently in the landscape in these parts. When trimming these things I wear a long sleeve shirt and gloves. I have found that the raphides are in both the petioles and leaves, and if the subsequent itching is of any value in assessing their presence and concentration they are present in both stuctures in equal quantities! The plant juices that I have come in contact with are from freshly cut material, not dried. This might suggest to you that drying your material is destroying the raphides?? Admittedly I have not tried exposing my self to dried material. The little critters to not require a fresh skin abrasion to enter. I can vouch for that! They enter either through the pores or directly through the epidermis, pore or no pore. Don Burns Ft Lauderdale

From: StellrJ at aol.com on 2001.07.24 at 02:48:23(7099) In a message dated Mon, 23 Jul 2001 2:43:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Don Burns" writes: > > > The plant juices that I have come in contact with are from freshly cut material, > not dried. This might suggest to you that drying your material is destroying > the raphides?? Ah! The experiments of the late Euell Gibbons! Having read reports to the effect that Native Americans ate the tuberous root of Arisaema triphylla, he tested the possibility. Like many aroids, this plant is painfully irritant to the mucous membranes when raw. Gibbons found that no amount of boiling was effective, the root remaining painfully irritant; but, having sliced the roots thinly and drying them six months in the attic, he found they were, indeed, edible after such a treatment. He later had the same results with Symplocos foetidus. Jason Hernandez +More Naturalist-at-Large

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