Line breeding vs hybridization corn/maize.

From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at email.msn.com> on 2001.06.25 at 00:37:07(6869) - -----Original Message----- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L +More Date: Sunday, June 24, 2001 1:30 AM Subject: Re: Line breeding vs hybridization Dear Friends, I do not believe the reference to 'maize corn' (below) being only able to reproduce with man`s assistance to be correct---in the wild, both the more primitive ('wild') forms as well as the more 'advanced' (improved) forms of maize/corn can and are 'planted' by the activities of wild animals, who 'open' the enclosing modified leaves to get at the seed/kernels contained within, and a certain small percentage of these are dislodged by them to fall and germinate, thus carrying on the plants lineage, as it was with the original 'design'. Some dry seeds/kernels may have also passed through the digestive tract of the large ancient (now extinct) herbivores to 'emerge' and germinate in the now-readly available manure, as they still sometimes do today with horses, deer and even sometimes cattle, whose chewing of their cud may make this more unlikely. Respectfully, Julius Boos >>In a message dated Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:58:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jill Bell writes: << To me one of the best examples of ruining a species by hybridization are meat cows. They need winches to pull out their young, they would not survive in nature at all. This is a tremendously interesting discussion!<< >>< within the husk until man frees them -- obviously incapable of perpetuating itself in nature -- yet it has been thus for thousands of years.<<>>

From: Lewandjim at aol.com on 2001.06.25 at 15:44:27(6875) In a message dated 6/24/2001 8:37:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ju-bo@email.msn.com writes: << I do not believe the reference to 'maize corn' (below) being only able to +More reproduce with man`s assistance to be correct---in the wild, both the more primitive ('wild') forms as well as the more 'advanced' (improved) forms of maize/corn can and are 'planted' by the activities of wild animals, who 'open' the enclosing modified leaves to get at the seed/kernels contained within, and a certain small percentage of these are dislodged by them to fall and germinate, thus carrying on the plants lineage, as it was with the original 'design'. >> Julius, I think you are correct that maize can be disseminated by natural means but to my knowledge maize has not been recognized as a natural species for nearly half a century. When I was in college Dr. Charles Heiser was one of the researchers. I remember his economic botany lectures going into great detail into the bigeneric origin of maize - apparently created and nurtured into its final form by Indians of southern Mexico and Central America. Jim Langhammer

From: "Julius Boos" ju-bo at email.msn.com> on 2001.06.26 at 05:54:13(6882) In a message dated 6/24/2001 8:37:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ju-bo@email.msn.com writes: << I do not believe the reference to 'maize corn' (below) being only able to +More reproduce with man`s assistance to be correct---in the wild, both the more primitive ('wild') forms as well as the more 'advanced' (improved) forms of maize/corn can and are 'planted' by the activities of wild animals, who 'open' the enclosing modified leaves to get at the seed/kernels contained within, and a certain small percentage of these are dislodged by them to fall and germinate, thus carrying on the plants lineage, as it was with the original 'design'. >> >>Julius, I think you are correct that maize can be disseminated by natural means but to my knowledge maize has not been recognized as a natural species for nearly half a century. When I was in college Dr. Charles Heiser was one of the researchers. I remember his economic botany lectures going into great detail into the bigeneric origin of maize - apparently created and nurtured into its final form by Indians of southern Mexico and Central America. Jim Langhammer<< Dear Jim, Wish I had all my 'ducks in a row' AND all my literature in order when something like this comes up! There was an article, in I believe a "Natural History' Mag just a few (3-5?) years ago, the author says they had FINALLY discovered in Mexico the or one of the wild 'grasses' that was definitely the or one of the parents of maize as we now know it, the seed 'head' was long and scraggly, with just a 'line' or two of small seed/kernels with pointed 'tips', the silk came off of these ends. Do NOT remember if there were modified leaves enclosing the whole caboodle, but think that there were. 'Primitive' man then took it from there, and a FINE job they did with this grain. As you say, wild animals/birds would/could/do certainly disseminate the seed of both the 'wild' and cultivated forms of this grain. AND---for those of us who love to EAT maize AND potatoes, one has not LIVED until one has lived in Peru or Ecuador, and samples the fantastic and great variety of these two basic foods that are cultivated, every size, color and FLAVOR seem represented, I still savor in my mind the memory of some of these wonderful foods one NEVER sees in the U.S.A. Cheers, Julius

From: StellrJ at aol.com on 2001.06.28 at 23:35:14(6914) In a message dated Tue, 26 Jun 2001 1:54:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Julius Boos" writes: << Wish I had all my 'ducks in a row' AND all my literature in order when something like this comes up! There was an article, in I believe a "Natural History' Mag just a few (3-5?) years ago, the author says they had FINALLY discovered in Mexico the or one of the wild 'grasses' that was +More definitely the or one of the parents of maize as we now know it.>> Question: If fig wasps were taxonomists, would they say figs are all unnatural species, because these evolved in exclusive mutualisms with them? That is, in essence, what we are doing when we call our cultivated crops unnatural. As I see it, all our domesticated plants and animals are simply cases of mutualistic symbiosis; and just as a yucca compromises by losing some seeds to feed a moth larva in exchange for propagation by said moth, so our domesticates do the same. I have no problem giving them the same taxonomic status as any other symbiotic species. To bring this bacvk to aroids, does any genuinely wild population exist of Colocasia esculenta? Jason Hernandez Naturalist-at-Large

From: "Wilbert Hetterscheid" hetter at worldonline.nl> on 2001.07.01 at 04:17:23(6922) There is a difference between fig wasps invading figs and human interaction to get improved crops: humans are intentionally and result-driven, with a mind pre-set to do it. Fig wasps, for all I know, do not seem to have a mind of their own in doing their thing with figs. So symbiosis and plant breeding are not the same thing. It is not so much the processes themselves but the way in which they are "used" to experiment on organisms. So, what the fig wasps do, fits evolutionary theory of adaptation and speciation as we define that today but breeding plants intentionally leads to different things, that do not behave as new and adapted species. It leads to entities that lose their "integrity" (as forced upon them by breeding) as soon as they escape again. Discussion flares up again when such escapees do find a way to establish themselves, albeit deviated from their "cultivated" looks (Dingo vs. dog). What to call these escapees? It's a gray area. Wilbert +More ----- Original Message ----- To: Multiple recipients of list AROID-L Sent: vrijdag 29 juni 2001 1:35 Subject: Re: Fw: Line breeding vs hybridization corn/maize. > In a message dated Tue, 26 Jun 2001 1:54:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Julius Boos" writes: > > << Wish I had all my 'ducks in a row' AND all my literature in order when > something like this comes up! There was an article, in I believe a > "Natural History' Mag just a few (3-5?) years ago, the author says they had > FINALLY discovered in Mexico the or one of the wild 'grasses' that was > definitely the or one of the parents of maize as we now know it.>> > > Question: If fig wasps were taxonomists, would they say figs are all unnatural species, because these evolved in exclusive mutualisms with them? That is, in essence, what we are doing when we call our cultivated crops unnatural. As I see it, all our domesticated plants and animals are simply cases of mutualistic symbiosis; and just as a yucca compromises by losing some seeds to feed a moth larva in exchange for propagation by said moth, so our domesticates do the same. I have no problem giving them the same taxonomic status as any other symbiotic species. > > To bring this bacvk to aroids, does any genuinely wild population exist of Colocasia esculenta? > > Jason Hernandez > Naturalist-at-Large >

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