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Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia of Thailand
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From: "Christopher Rogers" <crogers at ecoanalysts.com> on 2009.09.08 at 14:37:53
Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia of ThailandGood morning, Peter! That was in part the point Iwanted to make, but never actually got around to it. Too much field work at themoment (as if there can ever be too much field work). Your point is equallyimportant that molecular techniques is only one tool in the tool box, and iteven goes awry at times. Genes won’t amplify, viruses mix up the genes,amplification alters the genes, different genes giving different data . . .sigh. We so often only get a part ofthe picture that no real conclusion can be reached. Another important point isthat the factors delimiting one taxon are not necessarily applicable to anyother taxon; families, genera and species are not necessarily equal. Each wasformed by different selective pressures at different times in different ways. With the range of possibleexplanations and unanswered questions, I have no problem leaving those twoplants as “species” until more evidence one way or another rollsin. Happy days! Christopher D. Christopher Rogers Senior Invertebrate Ecologist/Taxonomist ((,///////////=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D< EcoAnalysts, Inc. 1.530.383.4798 P.O. Box 4098 Davis, CA 95616 USA Invertebrate Taxonomy Endangered Species Ecological Studies Bioassessment Invasive Species Plankton Phycology IDAHO∙ CALIFORNIA ∙ MISSOURI ∙ PENNSYLVANIA ∙ VANCOUVER WWW.ECOANALYSTS.COM=9A∙ ECO@ECOANALYSTS.COM From:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] OnBehalf Of Peter Boyce
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 11:39 PM
To: 'Discussion of aroids'
Cc: 'sin yeng wong'
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia of Thailand HiChristopher, Well,of course, this all boils down to just what ARE species... and for that matterwhat is REAL evidence?? Leavingthe first of these for better minds then ours, real evidence today alwaysincludes a considerable lump of molecular data (the testability criterion thatmakes science science rather than just informed guesswork), but alltaxonomists and systematists who do fieldwork, especially those fortunate to beworking in some of the so-called ‘hot-spots’ know that merecomparison of the coding of amino acid bases into proteins is only a part, possibleonly a tiny part, of the story, just in the same way that humanness is based ona considerable number of virtually unquantifiable ‘characters’ thatat present no amount of high-tech wizardry is able to measure. All we can sayis that the considerable fieldwork that has been undertaken in the past 2centuries in the ‘habitat’ of A. macrorrhizos and A. cucullata hasfailed to produce one even one individual that was not in association withhuman disturbance and that for the moment the matter rests with the evidentcaveat that lack of evidence is not the same as no evidence. Cheers Peter From:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] OnBehalf Of Christopher Rogers
Sent: 07 September 2009 03:44
To: Discussion of aroids; Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia of Thailand Iwould also add that there is probably no REAL evidence that these plants arenot species. Peter may have evidence against my arguments below. (Ifso, I hope he tells me). First off, they may be extinct in wild, or justnot yet found in the wild. Secondly,their natural habitat may have been the same natural habitat for humanhabitation. For example in California, there are fairy shrimp species foundnearly always where there is human habitation. However, human habitation andthe seasonal wetlands the shrimp live in both occur on flat ground, above theflood areas. Also the human habitation has spread so very much, that it isnearly impossible to find flat land above the flood zones that does not haveHumans. Thirdly,these may be plants that adapted to human habitation areas naturally, due totheir ability to handle certain levels of disturbance. So,speaking as a professional taxonomist who runs into these amazing puzzles fromtime to time, there are often many explanations to taxonomic and evolutionaryproblems. Plus, I think the only real difference between a cultivar and aspecies is natural selection verses artificial selection.
From:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com on behalf of Peter Boyce
Sent: Sat 05-Sep-09 8:18 PM
To: 'Discussion of aroids'
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia of Thailand Tony:
While we certainly like neat packages, those of us working in mega-rich
places are under no illusions that the species often haven't read the same
rule books!
Certainly 'species' such as A. macrorrizos and A. cucullata bend the
boundaries a lot. What is of course interesting is that A. macrorrhizos
(notwithstanding its doubtful 'pure' species status) is definitely related
(and here we are talking molecularly) to some unquestionably 'good' species,
such as A. portei and A. flabellifer, which poses even more difficulties. It
is also problematic to lalk about utilization of cultivars, especially those
that are selections of what may themselves be cultivars, albeit so
long-standing that they have effectively stabilized and function as species,
even to the extent that they have lost the ability to hybridize with other
elements of what was once a single gene pool.
Forgive me if I appear to be avoiding answering your suggestion. But the
fact is that I am not sure HOW to answer. The bottom line is that, at
present, we can only be sure that A. macrorrhizos and A. cucculata are NEVER
found away from human disturbance in 'habitat' and furthermore, away from
the attention of horticulturists are remarkable morphologically stable.
As a final thought on this, it is also important to remember that species
framework, and the interspecific crossing is often in nature not just a
matter of 'incompatibility'. Distribution, flowering time even down to the
level of time of day, and how these barriers function to manage
pollinators, or select for a particular pollinator guild, are as much, if
not more, a barrier than simple unrelatedness. If ever an example was needed
of the role of pollinator guild niche selection, the orchids of the
Stanhopineae contain numerous examples.
Cheers
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com]
On Behalf Of Tony Avent
Sent: 05 September 2009 21:29
To: Discussion of aroids
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia of Thailand
Pete:
I thought it was botanists/taxonomists who like nice neat nomenclatural
packages. These cultons sound instead like a botanical grab bag into
which all of the unsorted material is dumped. If they are indeed
selections of A. odora, then they certainly need cultivar names with A.
odora as a species. If, as Lari Ann suggests, they are cultivars which
cannot be assigned to a particular species, but are old hybrid groups or
species whose origins have been obscured, they still need a cultivar
name. Newly selected clones from them would then also need cultivar
names. This actually would make these fit much better into neat
nomenclatural packages. We would then know which new cultivar came from
which old cultivar of say, A. macrorrhizos. I tend to like the analysis
from plant breeders and can attest that outside of DNA, this is one of
the best ways to tell what is related to what. That being said, has
anyone done DNA analysis on this group?
Peter Boyce wrote:
> Tony:
>
> The x would indicate that they are stabilized hybrid species
(nothospecies)
> as, for example, the situation with Cryptocoryne x purpurea (a
nothospecies
> resulting from the stabilization of the naturally occurring hybrid C.
> cordata x C. griffithii) this is not the case. Alistair and are both
pretty
> much convinced that A. cucullata and A. macrorrhizos are stabilied
cultigens
> (cultons) of A. odora. In cultivation thus they COULD be cited a A.
> 'Macrorrhizos' and A. 'Cucullata', but that would then lead to problems
with
> cultons of these. Best to leave the situation as is.
>
> Cheers
>
> Pete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com
[mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com]
> On Behalf Of Tony Avent
> Sent: 05 September 2009 00:45
> To: Discussion of aroids
> Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Alocasia of Thailand
>
> Pete:
>
> I was just reading over your fascinating paper on Alocasia in Thailand
> about both Alocasia cucullata and A. macrorrhizos not being valid
> species. If this is the case and they are old cultigens, whywould
> they not be properly written a Alocasia x macrorrhizos and Alocasia x
> cucullata with an appropriate cultivar name for the clone in commerce?
>
> Peter Boyce wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>>
>>
>> For anyone interested there is attached to this a recent paper on the
>> /Alocasia/ in Thailand, including the description of a large-growing
>> species from the Thai/Cambodian border.
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
--
Tony Avent
Plant Delights Nursery @
Juniper Level Botanic Garden
9241 Sauls Road
Raleigh, North Carolina 27603 USA
Minimum Winter Temps 0-5 F
Maximum Summer Temps 95-105F
USDA Hardiness Zone 7b
email tony@plantdelights.com
website http://www.plantdelights.com
phone 919 772-4794
fax 919 772-4752
"I consider every plant hardy until I have killed it myself...at leastthree
times" - Avent
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